8mm
Posted on 10/13/2007 9:53:21 AM PDT by wagglebee
There are many instances where pragmatism has its place. In its purest sense, pragmatism is simply engaging in conduct that emphasizes practicality. For example, if I decide to spend $60 for a pair of pants that will last me several years rather than spend $20 for a pair that may not make it past the first outing it could be said that my decision involved the exercise of pragmatism.
That may work for pants but it doesn’t work for principles. Pragmatism may work well in the fashion world but it has no place in the world of public policy. There are many well meaning, passionate, evangelical believers who have reached the conclusion that when it comes to the 2008 race for the White House it is better to vote for a candidate who can win than to vote for a candidate who can truly lead. It is this kind of misplaced pragmatism that has the potential to permanently remove the voice of evangelicals from the political arena. Our seat at the table of ideas should be more precious to us than the results of one election cycle.
Let me be clear…. I do not want to see Hillary Clinton become the President of the United States. I believe her brand of big government socialism combined with her moral sophistry would drastically change the face of American culture. From government sponsored health care to government censored Christian speech another Clinton presidency would lead us into a financial and spiritual bankruptcy that could require decades of recovery time.
If we select a genuine conservative as the Republican standard bearer and lose we will recover to fight for our principles another day. But if we run a pseudo conservative and lose we will find ourselves with no principles left to fight for. We will have sacrificed them on the altar of expediency. And if we run a pseudo conservative and win we will find ourselves with no principles left to live by for we will have sacrificed them on the altar of pragmatism.
For years the blue blood, country club Republicans have resented the fact that they have had to come to religious conservatives with political hat in hand in or order to get elected. The instant they believe they can win without us they will put their hats back on their heads and give us the back of their hand. Rudy Giuliani’s current lead in the national polls gives the blue blood their best hope to regain control of the party from what is in their minds, the “great unwashed religious right.” Even if Republicans lose the White House in 2008 if Giuliani is the party’s standard bearer the establishment Republicans will have won a great victory. They will have successfully relegated religious conservatives to nothing more than a vocal irritant to be tolerated but not taken seriously.
When you examine the biblical story of Jacob, Esau, and Isaac (Genesis 25-27) the parallels to the current political climate in the Republican Party are startling. First, Esau comes home from working in the field to find Jacob slaving over a hot pot of stew. Esau is desperate for a meal and begs Jacob for some of the stew but Jacob sees an opportunity in Esau’s desperation to take something precious from him. Jacob says, “Sell me your birthright as of this day.” Esau reasons that his birthright, which was given to him by God, will not do him any good if he dies of hunger so he pragmatically agrees trading what was given to him by God for what was provided for him by man. Rather than stopping to think there might be another way to find a meal Esau, out of pure desperation, exchanges the eternal for the temporal. Perhaps he believed that as long as he would receive the blessing reserved for the first born he could afford to part with his birthright. But later, Jacob dressed up like Esau right down to gluing goat hair on his hands and the back of his neck so that Isaac (who by this time was blind) was deceived into giving away the primary blessing of God.
In the first part of the story Christians who settle for a pro-abortion, pro-homosexual rights candidate as the standard bearer for the Republican Party are like Esau, so desperate for the provision of the momentary relief of our grievance that we are willing to sacrifice the security of holding onto our principles for the future. In the second part of the story the Christian right resembles Isaac, who was blindly tricked into giving away God’s blessings by one who had the appearance of the real thing. And what was the end result for Esau? He lost both his birthright and his blessing; one because of the boldness of Jacob who took advantage of Esau’s desperation and the other because of the blindness of Isaac who had lost his ability to see past mere outward appearances.
May God protect us as believers from trading the birthright of America and the blessings of God for a bowl of political porridge and a bill of pseudo-conservative goods.
How about we fight like hell to make sure we don’t nominate a liberal?
The “conventional wisdom” is that socialism is going to win, so the candidates will run accordingly. The old Whig GOP doesn’t really want the conservatives anyway, and after the 06 elections doesn’t feel the need to pretend anymore.
So the question is, what do we do now?
This rock-rib Conservative, Bible-believing Christian agrees with you. Religion is about absolutes, politics is about compromise. I will support Guiliani, or any other Republican the party nominates, as being infinately better than any of the neo-Marxist demagogues the Rat Party will nominate. Many Christians don’t just need a lesson in civics, they need a lesson in common sense.
You and many other tried to impose your values on us.
We are trying to defend our interests. But there comes a time when you realize you have to make a stand. Often times, we on this site wonder why the African Americans stay with the DNC, when they have done nothing to help them.
What is happening now is that the conservatives are starting to wonder just what the heck the GOP leadership is trying to do. We had control of the White House, Congress, and many of the states for SIX YEARS and NOTHING was done. Yes, we launched two wars, but at even that few in the GOP hierarchy really see the need to try to articulate or defend the war.
Again, I say, “Hear! Hear!”
BS
Indeed sir. And that is where the difference is. I know that one day I will be called before God in His court, and an account of my life will be rendered. As a Christian, my duty is to what is His will, even though that is not often "expedient" in the secular realm.
This should be a surprise. For if you read the Bible, killing Jesus was the politically expedient thing to do. For as the Sanhedrin said "It is better for one man to die than for the whole nation to perish".
I will compromise on a lot, but there are lines I can not cross.
I was not surprised that I did not receive a replying post from the person that I had posted to.
This is exactly how a Constitutional Republic works. People have the God-given right of free association. Each adult has a Constitutionally derived right to vote for -- or withhold his/her vote from -- any candidate. Obviously citizens have every right to band together in a loose group as the religious right has and say they will or will not vote for a given candidate.
The Reagan coalition of social conservatives, libertarian conservatives and national security hawks only exists as long as it's in all our mutual interests. Neither social conservatives nor libertarian conservatives demand veto power over the GOP candidate -- many of us are simply saying that if it's Giuliani, we can't vote for him. That's not demanding veto power -- no one has denied you the right to form a new coalition and replace our votes, if you can.
“Are they standing on principals because they truly believe their principals will best be advanced by this stand”
Or maybe it’s just because their principles won’t allow them to rubber stamp a Giuliani presidency? Were you asleep when Clinton was impeached, and we blasted his character? Let me guess - you were one of the ones saying he was a scumbag out of one side of your mouth and cheering him on out of the other.
If Clinton had an R behind his name, would you have wanted him impeached at all? Don’t bother answering, it’s quite clear you view this as some kind of sporting event where there is no consequences beyond victory or defeat of your chosen team.
Knowing the scope of the presidency, what do you believe is most important: setting a guiding moral agenda that will fall on the deaf ears of a Democrat controlled congress? Or, use what power is available to shape the courts and veto shitty legislation that would expand government?
If need be, maybe the SoCon should check their piousness at the voting booth. God will judge us all in the end and make determinations based on how we fared in those areas inside our circles of influence...he'll probably judge us individually and not as a collective, too. So, if the candidate is Rudi, hold your nose while you vote. But, more than that, pray for him (and Democrats and, most importantly, anyone who would engage in bad activities) to adopt moral beliefs.
Jesus was possibly the only individual who ever walked this Earth that wasn't afforded the luxury of the free will the God grants to everyone else; even Mary was given the choice prior to her own birth to be the mother to our Savior.
It’s 1:30 am on a Saturday night, the Tribe is about to close out the Bosox, and I see my favorite Freeper is off his meds again.
Anyone up for a drinking game?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1847507/posts?page=101#101
I agree, I agree, I agree.
The only point I’ve been making is that taking an “I’ll show you” attitude makes the Pro-Life interests within the GOP the antagonist.
What you seem to call dogma, I would call principles. When I, as a conservative Christian, am willing to cast a vote for someone who supports the "choice" of killing innocent children for the sake of political strategery- then what on earth is there left that is worth fighting for.
Being pro-life is one of the cornerstones of the Republican platform. A pro-choicer claiming to be Republican is like liberal claiming to be a legitimate FREEPer.
What you call being a petulant whining child is what I call being true to one's faith and principles.
Maybe you don't understand the concept of what actually being a Christian is. It is being a follower of Christ.
What principles do you have that you are unwilling to bend on? Other than hatred or fear of Hillary?
Most Christians understand that one day they will have to face their creator. I don't think He will be upset that we stayed home from the polls and allowed Hillary to be voted in as the President. I believe He will be and even now is heart-broken that Americans as a whole have seemed comfortable with telling Him that He has no place in our system. A far cry from the claim that our very foundation of our rights is based on HIM and HIS promises to us.
However, I will proudly be persectuted in His name as dogmatic, petulant, childish, or any other slur you want to hurl at me.
I will have to face my God one day and be ashamed of many things. But I will not have to face Him knowing that I played it "smart" and "safe" against the Democrats by literally casting a vote for the death of millions of innocent children.
If the Republican Party decides to abanodon Christians and their values, don't blame the Christians for not being there when the Republicans need them to win.
I know you want to fight the good fight for your party- but alienating one third of your base by calling them names is exactly what got the Republicans into this mess. Abondoning their principles is EXACTLY what made them lose their power. The power that WE- The People- GAVE them.
President Bush was able to win both elections because of the very people the GOP wants to scold.
How dare they appeal to our values to get our votes to get into office, and then once in office, return to belittle and scoff at us for those very same values.
I can handle losing an election because I stood by my principles, what I cannot accept or live with- is losing my principles.
Go ahead and wave your white flag to the MSM and the DC elitites. Like any good soldier, I will fight on for what I know is right. Even if my own fellow soldiers want to defect.
Is standing for principal when it actively hurts the goals you are trying to achieve actually standing for principal or is is an act of ego?
The argument here is that the author feels he is standing for the principal because candidate A is not pro life PERSONALLY. However, that candidate is part of a party that IS pro Life. It is also the party that favors a strict Constructionist approach in Judaical nominations. Strict Constructionialism favors Life over child murder.
Therefore with a GOP President, you have a chance of getting Judges appointed that will rule for overturning Roe V Wade. That despite the individual candidates own views not being to our personal views. With a Democrat President you will get exactly the opposite. You will not only NOT gain ground, you will lose ground you have all ready achieved in the fight to preserve life.
So is what being stated here as “Standing on principal” actually standing on principal or is it actually sacrificing principals to personal ego and feelings?
Standing on principals to me means actively working to achieve those goals not just standing on a soapbox being mad because the fight is tough and not this second going our way.
Reagan wasn’t perfect. NO candidate will ever be perfect. Demanding perfection out of anything in politics is the behavior of childish moronic brats, not rational adult minds.
Rudy was never mentioned in the post. That was a childishly stupid attempt by you to side track the issue since you lack even the bear minimum of intellectual ability to actually debate the facts of this matter.
Waddle back to DU now clown. Spare us the hysteric hypocrisy about being a “Conservative”. Your posting history shows you to be an Moveon.org stodge playing the stupid “betrayed conservative” fraud game.
“No. Since you obviously failed 1st grade reading comprehension I will explain it in simple terms so you can finally understand something posted here for the 1st time in your miserable Moveon.org stodge life.
Reagan wasn’t perfect. NO candidate will ever be perfect. Demanding perfection out of anything in politics is the behavior of childish moronic brats, not rational adult minds.”
What is a “stodge?”
“Rudy was never mentioned in the post.”
Since you seem to shill for him like he was the second coming, forgive the mistake on my part.
“Waddle back to DU now clown. Spare us the hysteric hypocrisy about being a “Conservative”. Your posting history shows you to be an Moveon.org stodge playing the stupid “betrayed conservative” fraud game.”
I’m trying to understand you as best I can without attacking you as childishly as you have just done to me...you really do not have any clue that “Republican” and “Conservative” mean two different things do you? I don’t think that you are stupid, just ignorant or so blinded by party loyalty that you sold out what principles you may have had to the lowest bidder years ago in a vain attempt to retrieve good while continuing to vote for “the lesser of two evils.”
I used to do that. I used to be a party uber alles type such as yourself. Then over the last few years I’ve seen what that party has become. I’ve seen what it does to people that I once considered stalwarts of the conservative movement. These stalwarts either overtly or passively swore their allegiance, their principles, their very souls to a political party that then turned and kicked their teeth down their all too surprised throats.
I don’t hate these people. I pity you. For you too, have seen what I have seen. You too, wether you admit it or not can barely stand to look at the man that we all voted for, twice. You grasp at Supreme Court appointments like a drowning man grasping at the last life preserver he’ll likely ever see. That floating donut has the words U.S.S. Conservative Principles written on it. Don’t you ever miss your credibility?
Well FRiend, I have decided that I am not going to choose between two evils ever again. I am going to stand on ROCK, not upon shifting sand. I WILL choose my principles, my morals and yes my God over your political party. I am voting for Fred Thompson in the primary. Should he lose I’ll vote for the nominee so long as it is not Rudy. If your party chooses Rudy and wins, you’ve beaten the liberal by becoming them.
If, however they choose to go with what they CLAIM to believe in, and choose a conservative....whew, that would be a shocker, wouldn’t it? I would personally rather vote my conscience and support a conservative than to be whore and vote for Rudy, because frankly you’ve won nothing in that case and sold what is left of your soul.
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