Look Again At The Frost Facts...And Don't Back Down

freeper research, Baltimore Sun, Others ^ | 10-11-07 | icwhatudo

[icwhatudo]

Conservatives often complain that republicans back down, that they have no spine, that they wilt when faced with criticism of "but its for the children!" Will the fight over the S-CHIP expansion veto be a repeat?

Many media outlets and left wing blogs are crowing about all the supposed falsehoods contained in my original post.

Before you go running for the hills, tail between your legs, can we at least take a look at each and every point made in that post? You know, the one that "attacks a 12 year old boy".

I keep hearing how all my info was wrong, how it was all debunked as lies etc etc etc... but really there was only 1 major thing i was off on- the family paid a lower tuition amount at the exclusive Park school due to financial aid. This does not change the fact they are still paying for private school, just at a lower rate, while others are paying for their kids health care costs.

So that's what I was off on. Lets see what I got right:

"Graeme Frost, who gave the democrat rebuttal to George Bush’s reasons for vetoing the SCHIP Bill, is a middle school student at the exclusive$20,000 per year Park School in Baltimore, MD.

100% true

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"Graeme was in a severe car accident three years ago, and received care paid for by the government program known as SCHIP-(State Children's Health Insurance Program)"

100% true

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"I was in a coma for a week and couldn't eat or stand up or even talk. My sister was even worse," Graeme wrote. "My parents work really hard and always make sure my sister and I have everything we need, but we can't afford private health insurance."

Direct quote from article

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"His sister Gemma, also severely injured in the accident, attended the same school prior to the accident"

100% true and now we learn that all 4 attended private school. After the accident, Gemma began attending a new special needs school paid for by the state.

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meaning the family was able to come up with nearly $40,000 per year for tuition for these 2 grade schoolers.

Dealt with above.

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Confirmation both attended Park found here using edit-"find on this page"-Gemma. It will take you to an article in the schools newspaper about a fundraiser for Gemma class of 16, and Graeme class of 13.

100% true

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"Here are photos of the school's 44,000 square foot Wyman Arts Center: two galleries, an outdoor ampitheater, Meyerhoff Theater, Macks-Fidler Black Box Theater, practice rooms, rehearsal space, and ceramics, 3-D sculpture, woodworking, jewelry, painting, photography, digital graphics studios, recording studio, and keyboard lab.

100% true

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In a Baltimore Sun article the family claims to be raising their four children on combined income of about $45,000 a year."

100% true

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"Bonnie Frost works for a medical publishing firm; her husband, Halsey, is a woodworker. They are raising their four children on combined income of about $45,000 a year. Neither gets health insurance through work."

Direct quote from article. Somewhat misleading to say he can't get it through work, when he's self employed.

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"What the article does not mention is that Halsey Frost has owned his own company "Frostworks",since this marriage announcement in the NY Times in 1992

True, under the name Frostworks to 1999/2000 and then, after working as an architectural designer and manager of a small custom cabinet shop, under a new company name. The Baltimore Sun confirms he is presently self employed.

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..."so he chooses to not give himself insurance. He also employed his wife as "bookkeeper and operations management" prior to her recent 2007 hire at the "medical publishing firm".

100% true

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As her employer, he apparently denied her health insurance as well.

Unconfirmed, hence the "apparently". Its safe to say she would not have switched jobs away from one that offered health insurance to one that doesn't.

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His company, Frostworks, is located at **** E BALTIMORE ST.

Which it was, and is still is according to Baltimore.com's business search for cabinet makers. Changing the name you use for your company does not change your business location.

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"A building that was purchased for $160,000 in 1999."

100% true

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"The buildings owner is listed as DIVERSIFIED INDUSTRIAL DESIGN CENTER, LLC whose mailing address is listed as *** S Collington Ave which is the Frost's home."

100% true

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"The commercial property he owns is also listed as the business address for another company called Reillys Designs"

100% true

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Which leads to the question of whether rental income is included in the above mentioned salary total.

100% true-The fact they receive rental income has been confirmed but the Baltimore Sun did not ask if it was included in their claimed 45-50k combined "income" (though they did ask for access to a tax return and the Frosts refused.)

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"The current market value of their improved 3,040 SF home at *** S Collington Ave is unknown but *** S COLLINGTON AVE, also an end unit, sold for $485,000 this past March and it was only 2,060 SF.

100% true

This has also been a source of many claims of mistaken information. While other blogs or radio shows may have made the mistake of saying all homes in the area sell for 400-500k- or that the Frosts paid 485k for their home, my information was correct. I compared the home to a recently sold SMALLER home only a few doors down that was also an end unit. Citing tax assessments of 260k (which are always lower than market value) is disingenuous. A fellow freeper early in the thread posted a zillow estimate of approximately 350k and Michelle Malkin's infamous "stalking tour" led her to say that estimates of 500k were too high. So much for the idea that the blogger mob were not interested in getting their facts straight. I'm sure all the media trucks Time magazine says are parked near the home will also be called stalkers-right?

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"A photo taken in the family's kitchen shows what appears to be a recent remodeling job"

100% true. The home remodeling has been confirmed by the Frosts in the Sun article.

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with granite counter tops

FALSE-The kitchen had concrete counters rather than granite. The left is really milking this one and its mention in this AP article was the only example they used from my entire post. This is such a silly point and was simply an observation about the photo the Sun used to show the family... but since even USA Today is making a big deal out of it, sigh, lets take a look:

"Concrete countertops are a custom crafted material for high end use and are often specified by designers or architects.

Consumers, in some cases think of concrete as being a cheaper alternative to other available countertop surfaces. Concrete countertops should be sold (or bought) based on being a beautiful, custom, handmade, relatively unique product. Customers going in thinking the countertops will be low budget items will quickly find out otherwise.

Concrete countertops range from $65 to $125 per square foot.

Granite countertops range from $60-$120 per square foot.

So the funny thing is, according to these links, concrete counters are actually MORE expensive than granite so I don't quite get the left's glee on that one.

I'm sure Olberman will have something to say like "Just when you think this story could not get any lower, we are now reduced to arguing cost differences of granite vs concrete countertops". Yep, it is silly. Maybe the AP and USA Today should stop harping on it and instead focus on whether families of higher means than than the Frosts really need tax payer financed health care.

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and glass front cabinets

100% true

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One has to wonder that if time and money can be found to remodel a home

100% true

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send kids to exclusive private schools,

100% true

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purchase commercial property

100% true

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and run your own business

100% true

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maybe money can be found for other things...

My opinion.

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maybe Dad should drop his woodworking hobby and get a real job that offers health insurance rather than making people like me (also with 4 kids in a 600sf smaller house and tuition $16,000 less per kid and no commercial property ownership) pay for it in my taxes.

My opinion. On second look, a bit snippy but the central point is true. There have to be jobs out there with healthplans for someone with:

"over twenty years experience in architectural construction. Fine architectural woodworking/ cabinetmaking Residential and commercial construction. Industrial systems manufacturing, pipefitting, electrical control. Architectural design, CAD 2D & 3D modeling & rendering (Vectorworks/Renderworks)Construction management(All types)."

I know we all would like to be our own boss but sometimes you just have to settle for a good job with health insurance.

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Not being a reporter and doing this all in about 3 hours using Google can bring me all the criticism in the world, but to say my info is all lies or has been disproved is not correct. As is the assertion that I somehow "attacked" a 12 year old.

BTW, I hope the Sun spent a little more than 3 hours researching their story.

"I am incredibly thankful," said Frost, who works full time for a medical publishing firm.
Baltimore Sun September 27

vs

"...while Bonnie works part time for a medical publishing firm."
Baltimore Sun October 11, 2007

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[HundredDollars]

I think debating the accident details is counterproductive, but maybe I’m missing the point. They certainly didn’t have the wreck on purpose and the children were severely injured. The rest is unimportant. It just looks petty to assign blame for the wreck at someone who has suffered such a tragedy, and I'm no bleeding heart. I see no connection to the S-CHIP/leech debate.

Keep focused on the issues of:
1. Their choice not to have health insurance means taxpayers now pay their medical bills.
2. Lifestyle supported by taxpayers.
2. Income/lifestyle not adding up.
4. Misrepresenting themselves as uninsured through work.
5. Details surrounding the private school. How can they afford or why did they get accepted/financial assistance? Back door dealing?
6. Their apparently wealthy families.

Expose them as gov't entitlement abusers and tax cheats if that is indeed what they are. The accident/injuries are only tangentially related to these issues. They put themselves in the public eye. They'd better lube up because here comes the microscope.

If kept in the news, hopefully it will become apparent to more of the common folk that the MSM is not doing their investigative job and is shilling for the dems, while attacking icwhatudo with vitriol.

Don't let them paint us as mean people attacking a tragic family or 12 year old although they'll surely try. The general public is very easily misdirected by the press.

[HundredDollars]

I think debating the accident details is counterproductive, but maybe I’m missing the point. They certainly didn’t have the wreck on purpose and the children were severely injured. The rest is unimportant. It just looks petty to assign blame for the wreck at someone who has suffered such a tragedy, and I'm no bleeding heart. I see no connection to the S-CHIP/leech debate.

Keep focused on the issues of:
1. Their choice not to have health insurance means taxpayers now pay their medical bills.
2. Lifestyle supported by taxpayers.
2. Income/lifestyle not adding up.
4. Misrepresenting themselves as uninsured through work.
5. Details surrounding the private school. How can they afford or why did they get accepted/financial assistance? Back door dealing?
6. Their apparently wealthy families.

Expose them as gov't entitlement abusers and tax cheats if that is indeed what they are. The accident/injuries are only tangentially related to these issues. They put themselves in the public eye. They'd better lube up because here comes the microscope.

If kept in the news, hopefully it will become apparent to more of the common folk that the MSM is not doing their investigative job and is shilling for the dems, while attacking icwhatudo with vitriol.

Don't let them paint us as mean people attacking a tragic family or 12 year old although they'll surely try. The general public is very easily misdirected by the press.

[Diver Dave]

I’m pretty impressed with the original investigation you did and equally so with this follow-up.

Our Lord’s Blessings and protection to you and your family.

[palmer]

I heard that the Grand Parents just happen to `donate' $40,000 to the school, which just `happened' to give a scholarship to the kids.

Heard where? All we have so far is misunderstanding from another thread where it was described that the GPs gave to a daycare center that got named after them. If you have actual information about a donation, please present it. Otherwise you are perpetuating a rumor started at this forum.

[Jabba the Nutt]

I think you are being too generous on the tuition question. The Frosts have not said how much their pay for tuition. Michelle Malkin talked to the Frost's tenant at their commercial property, Reilly of Reilly Designs. He said he understood that the Grandparents pay the kids tuitions. I'd say, what they pay is still open.

Of course, it's the Frost's business what and how they pay, but if you are interested in your privacy, don't put your kid out to front a major party response to the President. You can have one, but not both.

[mountn man]

A decent carpenter with the right shop equipment can build his own kitchen cabinets at 10th or less than the cost of store bought cabinets.

Didn't your mother ever teach you that farting in public is rude?

There might be some savings, if like for like materials were used. But unless the bought cabinets were custom made, the savings really won't be THAT substantial.

If the cabinets were something that can be bought at Lowes or Home Depot, it would be extremely hard, if not outright impossible to drastically undercut those prices.

1-hardware must be bought. The cabinet company buys theirs by the 1,000's or even 10,000's, versus the individual buying them at a couple or few dozen.

2-lumber costs. A cabinet company probably gets their lumber green and seasons and mills it themselves. A small furniture company would probably buy dried lumber, probably rough sawn. Definitely more expensive.

3-machining. A cabinet company is going to be using a lot of computer operated machinery. Wood is fed in one end, cut to size, comes out the other end. Moves to the next station, and similar happens. And so on. A one man operation can have a cnc machine, but still a person is overseeing each and all of the operations.

4-setup. A cabinet company makes pieces for a 1000 cabinets before changing to set up for another, at each different machine. An individual might have 2-3 duplicate machines, set up differently, but they have to be initially set up, and reset when measurements change.

By the time a cabinet is rolled out the door, the actual labor cost per unit is relatively small. The real factor for the company is large numbers. Granted, they have large overhead with buildings, machinery, land, and so on, its divided by the large lots produced.

An individual still has to buy relatively expensive equipment. 1-2 cabinet saws at $2000+, 1-2 bandsaws at $2000+, drumsander, drill press, shaper or routers, air filter, dust collector, and other machines and tools and accessories. It would cost $10,000 just for the hobbyist/small business man to get started for equipment, and that number would easily double or triple for that hobbyist/ small business man to really get serious. And to really gear it for a small business the price would go up. Now divide those numbers by a small volume of products and it becomes obvious, how relatively inexpensive the massed produced cabinetry machinery costs.

No "carpenter" is going to build high quality cabinetry on his Craftsman contractor table saw, or with his Milwaukee Hole Shooter. There are numerous tools for cabinetry or furniture that the average "carpenter" will not have.

[sauropod]

Thank you for what you’re doing.

You should’ve seen the tear jerker in the Blight for All yesterday about this.

[Leisler]

It is not the equipment. Museum quality work can be done,and still is, by non power hand tools. Some people pay extra for it, a lot. I don’t know why.

It is more of a function of labor time. However, if this touchy feely wood hippie is as unsuccessful as he appears, he might well of had the time on his hands.

[Son House]

The date, December 4, 2004, a Saturday: from;

http://www.kennedykrieger.org/kki_touch_article.jsp?pid=4884

On December 4, 2004, the car the children were riding in hit a patch of black ice and spun into a tree.

.
The weather shows there was rain on 1 Dec 2004 that ended by 10:54 am, 8:54 am daytime high occurs at 55.9 degrees, 15 hours later, on the 2nd at 2:54 am the temp nears freezing, daytime highs are around 50 degrees throughout the week; that leaves 2 1/2 days of the road drying off before 4 Dec 2004, if everything given here is accurate.

The week’s weather;

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KBWI/2004/12/1/WeeklyHistory.html

The rain on the 1st;

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KBWI/2004/12/1/DailyHistory.html

The weather on the 4th;

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KBWI/2004/12/4/DailyHistory.html

.
By 9:54am on the 4th, the temp was above freezing at 39 degrees.

The time of day did the accident occurred is still unknown to me.

[Leisler]

I can not source it for you. I have a feeling, and only that, that I did not get the notion from FR.

It is still a good, um, avenue to investigate.

Isn’t it odd that the GP’s gave to a day care center, enough to get named after themselves and, what, none to their grandkids?

Anyways, another thought about Mr. Wood Hippie. So, he pulls in, supposedly, 25k per year. (No cash work out of the Ye Old Hippie wood shop, right)
So, he buys the building, equipment, he has insurance, heat, light yada, yada, yada and he pays himself 25K. Is that because the bidness made udels, and he plowed the corporate profits back into paying off the building fast? Like maybe a ten year payback? Mean while Snuffy Cab Driver is paying extra taxes to pick up the tab of our Wood Hippie because he is well educated, sophisticated and is using simple shelters to drive his income down?

Nah. Fugehdabouit!

[Christian4Bush]

bump

[Beagle8U]

“The time of day did the accident occurred is still unknown to me.”

I think the article said she was taking the kids to school so my guess would be around 8AM.

[Son House]

December 4th is a Saturday, another good reason to see an accident report, it’s too bad the Democrat Majority Press doesn’t insist on facts before printing ‘black ice’ references.

[Age of Reason]

My brother built his own kitchen cabinets.

I am sure it was really more about the enjoyment of doing so than about the cost savings he used to justify the project.

I think he went overboard in committing so much of his time to the project.

There's a point when one needs be honest with oneself by wondering if we're really doing something to save money--or if we're just using that as an excuse to play hooky from more important responsibilities.

[Son House]

Sure adds to the emotion/sympathy factor; going to school, hitting ‘black ice’.

[mountn man]

I agree with everything you said. My issue with the other poster was he said that a good carpenter could build the cabinets for 1/10 or less of the cost as to buy from a store. My point I was trying to make was that his dramatic savings were unrealistic. To build a cabinet that cost $200 on sale at a store would probably cost over $100 in lumber, hardware. Add stain and finish and sandpaper and whatever else and the price increases.

Obviously the 1/10 cost or less is WAAAY out of whack.

[DuncanWaring]

Thanks for doing the repost.

[Beagle8U]

If it was a Saturday the “on the way to school” part was likely more BS.

[Son House]

Scripted to tug at the heart strings of voters, when if an accident report is not produced, I am starting to think this lady drove off the road on a nice day, for seemingly no reason at all.

[Leisler]

Yup.