Posted on 10/10/2007 11:08:10 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
Tories may be considering new submarines, say military sources
By Murray Brewster, The Canadian Press
OTTAWA - The defence minister's office recently requested a briefing on how long it would take to introduce new submarines - a move that could set the stage for the replacement of the troubled Victoria-class boats, defence sources have told The Canadian Press.
At the same time, a key refit contract involving the compressed-air system aboard HMCS Victoria has been put on hold, an upgrade which left incomplete would mean the warship would not be able to fire torpedoes.
Both actions raise questions about the future of the four glitch-plagued submarines that were purchased from Britain in 1998 under the former Liberal government and have yet to reach full operational status.
In the briefing, which was reportedly delivered by senior officials last week to Peter MacKay's new deputy minister, the government was told it would take six years to bring new submarines completely up to snuff, starting from the moment of contract signing.
A second defence source said a more conservative estimate of the timeline would be up to eight years.
A spokesman for MacKay declined to give details of the briefing.
"The minister has no comment on the substance of briefings, which are often sensitive in nature," said Jay Paxton, the minister's press secretary.
"The minister does view these subs as an important strategic asset for Canada."
The conjecture comes at a time when the Harper government is casting around for ways to bolster the country's sovereignty over the Arctic. The issue of the Far North is expected to figure prominently in next week's throne speech.
The four Victoria-class submarines are incapable of operating under the ice and naval experts have recommended that they be installed with an air independent propulsion system, which would allow for up two weeks submerged operations in the Arctic.
But the refit program for the current submarine fleet has been fraught with delays. A couple of weeks ago, the navy revealed that the upgrades on HMCS Victoria will take almost a year longer than expected.
In addition, the navy last year put off upgrading and repairing fire damage aboard HMCS Chicoutimi until 2010. On its maiden voyage to Canada in October 2004, an electrical fire crippled the boat and left Lieut. Chris Saunders dead.
Almost from the beginning, the $897-million program to buy the 1980s-vintage, mothballed diesel electric boats from the Royal Navy faced intense public scrutiny - especially after a series of mechanical glitches that included leaks, hull dents and rust. Through it all, the Canadian navy has been steadfast, defending the boats as necessary piece of the country's maritime defence strategy.
But getting the submarines up to snuff has been chewing up the largest chunk of the navy's maintenance budget, according to reports released under access to information. And each of the boats will require a mid-life refit in order to keep them operating into the 2025 time frame - a project that was estimated in 2005 to be worth an additional $865 million.
Defence sources said there are questions now about whether the Conservatives are preparing to cut the government's losses and replace the troubled boats sooner, operating the Victoria-class until a new breed of conventional submarine can be acquired.
"You've got wonder to what's going on, especially with all of the emphasis on the Arctic," said one senior source who asked not to be identified.
Defence expert Ken Bowring, a former naval engineer, said it's clear the government is on a fact-finding mission, but it remains to be seen what comes out of it.
"The navy is working hard to get the Victoria-class operational because they've got the boats, they want to do something with them," Bowring, who is a vice-president with the Navy League of Canada.
Liberal Senator Colin Kenny, head of the Senate security and defence committee, said the order time for new submarines is extensive and looking at possible replacement now would make sense.
"I can't see the Victoria submarines being with us for more than a decade," he said. "As long as they maintain this vital capability."
A possible replacement for the troubled British-built boats might be found in Germany. That country has developed a booming export business for its Type 214-Class boats.
South Korea and Greece recently lined up to buy the vessels, which are based on the proven Type 212 design - a boat that is powered by an air independent propulsion system much the same as engineers recommended for the Victoria class.
They should buy any new subs on their credit card, so if they again get stuck with lemons, they can at least contest the charges.
Several years ago, I saw the entire Canadian Atlantic submarine fleet at dock in Halifax. I hope that this is not considered classified information, but two of the three subs were inoperative, and looked like rusty hulks. That left one which, at risk to the crew, could possibly have been seaworthy (if one considers that sinking is the business of submarines, anyway).
Then they purchased a cast-off British sub which almost sank with its crew while trying to get to Canada.
The Canadians must get in shape to take on mighty Denmark in a quarrel over a tiny rock in the Davis Strait. Facing down the Russians in the Arctic Ocean, is, of course, out of the question for them. Not even hurling bilngual epithets and boasting about the Canadian system of medical care is likely to impress the Russians.
The Russians recently made a grandstanding trip, planting an underwater flag at the North Pole. They claim that the Lomonosov Ridge is merely an extension of their continental shelf. To be frank, that is indeed what it looks like from the best bathymetric maps. That ridge also could be considered an extension of the continental shelf on the other side. The United Nations (blessings be upon their greaty wisdom!) has declared arbitrarily that a country owns everything on its continental shelf, presumably including long, narrow fingers like the Lomonosov Ridge.
If everyone were sensible, they would just divide up the Arctic resources like a giant pie, meeting at the Pole. That would be too logical, I suppose, and the Russians are likely to wish to do things their way, which is by taking by force what they want.
Never, never, never trust the Russians!
Man, they are still trying to get these ones up to snuff... after a decade I’d have figured they would have em at least all working effectively.
I’m seeing target boats for their next generation subs....
A possible replacement for the troubled British-built boats might be found in Germany...
Great White North ping.
Wonder if this move has anything to do with the news that the Northwest Passage is opening up........
Wonder if this move has anything to do with the news that the Northwest Passage is opening up........
If the kind of agreement you talk about works out-the 4 boats will be around 20 years old when they enter Taiwanese waters.& that’s still short of the 8 boats Taiwan wants.
If Several years means 10 to 15 years or so,then you probably saw Canada’s fleet of Oberon class subs-they were inducted in the 1960s,so don’t be surprised.
The company which builds Sweden’s subs is now owned by the German shipbuilder HDW-which also builds Germany’s subs.
Das Boot?
Yah, dat is vat ve like, exporting our u boaten to de canadyends.
Veenershnitzen for all, gazuntight.
Seriously, the should just demand occupation by America, and make the case that they are more dangerous than Iraq, deserve our attention.
It would be 3 more than they have now, and since the US hasn’t made any real progress since the promise would be made, it would at least show some good faith.
(And let’s face it - the 4th boat is never going to be good for anything but parts. The Canadians pretty much gave up on it while they still held out hope for the other 3.)
Thanks :
The company which builds Sweden’s subs is now owned by the German shipbuilder HDW-
>>>A possible replacement for the troubled British-built boats might be found in Germany. That country has developed a booming export business for its Type 214-Class boats.
Meanwhile on the other thread...
ISLAMABAD: The Senate Standing Committee on Defence has sought an explanation from the Defence Ministry over the controversial purchase of German submarines U-214, which have been found to be lacking stability in rough sea conditions, having faulty Air Independent Propulsion system, vacillating periscopes and were easy to detect.
They should get the extended warrantee.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.