A Mormon in the Oval Office?

Washington Post ^ | October 4, 2007 | Robert Novak

[greyfoxx39]

When Mitt Romney appeared last week (via closed circuit from California) before the Council of Retired Chief Executives meeting in Washington, he faced kindred souls: rich Republicans who had managed big enterprises. Yet the second question from the audience was whether Romney's Mormon faith was hurting his quest for the Republican presidential nomination. He replied that about the only people who brought up his religion were members of the media, an answer that simply is untrue.

Romney is asked about Mormonism wherever he goes. In my travels, I find his religious preference cited everywhere as the source of opposition to his candidacy. His response to the former chief executives that only reporters care about this issue sounded like a politician's tired evasion. Romney was either too obtuse to appreciate his problem or was stalling because he had not determined how to deal with it. Contact with his advisers indicates that it's the latter.

[LeGrande]

Actually, what we have been attacking is the consequences of a Mormon presidency, which would by default bring numerous negative repercussions because of the executive branch’s place as the moral bully pulpit of the nation. Not the least of which is the the question of the sanity of a president who believes in seer stones, magic underwear, celestial polygamy, hieroglyphic interpretations, etc. Much less the consequences of a president who believes he is on a path to becoming God.

You are attacking Mormon beliefs, you are not discussing the issues. I suppose that is a concept that just flies right past you isn't it? From a rational perspective your beliefs are just as ludicrous. Do you really believe the world was flooded 4,400 years ago? LOL

The Mormons were ousted from Missouri and Illinois because of what were in good part the secessionist inclinations of Joseph Smith who was trying to set up a kingdom on earth. I think some (not all) of these problems are likely to recur in various forms during a Romney presidency. If those aren’t serious political questions, I don’t know what would be.

This is the odd part, your statement has absolutely no basis in fact. Joseph Smith was not secessionist at all. You could certainly make the case that Brigham Young in Utah was secessionist (an why not, after the extermination order), but that isn't what you said. Of course dissembling is your stock in trade isn't it?

Why would a Mormon be running for President if the goal of the Mormons was to secede from the Union? Do you understand the concept of logic?

Yes, we are all secret agents sent by unseen conspirators to disrupt the candidacy of Mitt Romney. Of course, LeGrande seems oddly silent about the similarly conspiratorial list of Mormon apologists who show up on en every Romney thread extolling Mitt’s God like abilities, and also show up on Fred threads trying to deep-six his campaign. Obviously we are anti-Mormon bigots while somehow Mormon-apologists following the mirror image strategy are not bigots but Saints. Please, let us all put on our tinfoil hats now.

Hmm, I tend to be a Fred and Duncan supporter (anyone but Hillary) and I am not a Mormon apologist. I prefer to shine the light of truth on the anti's to expose your hypocrocy.

Yes, if you want to follow the Mormon model and excommunicate everyone who doesn’t follow the hive mentality (that seems to create quite a mind numbing consensus among the Mormon faithful). But I suggest vigorous debate is exactly what FreeRepublic is about and I am curious why nearly all of the Mormon apologists here must call so repeatedly for censure, what are they afraid of? I am also curious if this is some kind of Mormon conspiracy born of almost two centuries of cloistered secrecy and concepts like blood atonement to try and eradicate resistance to the hive?

I didn't call for censure, but I have been cursed and condemned by you anti's for speaking the truth. It is clear that your purpose is to attack Mormonism and not debate the relevant issues of today. What is your real purpose?

[Edit35]

Pick one, perhaps Thompson, or Hunter or Huckabee ..

I'd be perfectly happy with Thompson, Hunter, or Huckabee as the GOP Presidential candidate.

I just think that Romney stands the best chance of attracting those essential 'middle' voters, due in large part to ... yes ... his charm, good looks and vibrant family values.

I certainly like Hunter's politics the best, but I fear his hard demeanor (for lack of a better desrciption) would not attract the votes needed in the general election.

I just don't understand all this Romney hatred I see here on FR.

Maybe the man switched or revised some of his positions in the past, but so has EVERYONE -- including the great Ronald Reagan.

I'd rather support a candidate who switched to the right positions than someone who clings to the wrong positions out of some fear of being called a flip-flopper.

Say what you want about Mormons. That's your God-given American right to despise them.

But there is no doubt they are a vibrant, patriotic, family values group -- who has stood by America through thick and thin.

Just look at Romney's family compared to Guliani's.

Or Thompson's for that matter. (not sure about Hunter's)

Romney's five sons are all successful, value-oriented, strappingly good looking kids. As is Romney's wife.

I believe the Romney family cohesiveness would gain him priceless positive press and admiration come the general election.

Sometimes the proof REALLY IS in the pudding, as they say.

[colorcountry]

This is my real purpose.

Christians Won't Elect a Mormon President According to ChristiaNet.com Poll

Now if this isn't a valid issue for discussion on FreeRepublic, we might as well stop all political discussion. I'm sure you would rather we stop all religious discussion as well, huh LeGrande? In the case of Romney, religion and politics has collided....should we just ignore it for the sake of political correctness? Should we send a flawed canididate to face Hillary?

Whether or not you approve, or whether or not they fit the discription of bigot, there are many Christians who will not support a Mormon. We'd better find out about it now.

[MEGoody]

Look dear, a wedding dress is a physical thing. You wore it once, you own it. The lace is seen, the bottons are seen, the zipper can be touched....get it.

Yep, but again, it is not considered 'sacred'. You're still trying to push this analogy, but it just doesn't jive.

And for that I get this bull crap, that because I no longer believe I can’t be trusted?

Sorry, I just can't trust someone who compares something the Mormons consider sacred to a wedding dress to be honest with me about Mormon practices. If that ticks you off, so be it.

[greyfoxx39]

Caption http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1904781/posts?page=257#257for the tracer threats and boasting in MOrmonism’s power to threaten FR.

This is also a very good example of the attempt to censor free speech on this forum. Note: Any information that is posted that deviates from the OFFICIAL mormon line here on FR is automatically labeled "bigotry" by the mormon apologists regardless of its factualness.

From the post referenced above: Fine. And you as a moderator should put an end to all of this anti-Mormon bigotry that develops from the mere mention of Romney's faith. There are many here who take this kind of thing very "personally." The tax-exempt and poorly-funded FR appears to foster hate speech in which "Mormons" continuously are accused of things they do not believe and have no connection to.

This "they do not believe and have no connection to" is the automatic response even when information is quoted directly from mormon scripture and leaders.

[Edit35]

I would vote for a Jew. They believe in God, the God of Abraham and Moses.

I love all things Jewish with the respect and admiration of someone in my own family.

But your claim that they view God the same as Christians is waaaaaay off base.

Do they believe or accept anything close to resembling the Trinity?

Do they accept that God sent his Son in the form of a human being as a sacrifice for mankind?

No, they don't. They believe in none of the main tenants of even the most liberal Christian denomination.

Still, I love Israel and all things Jewish to the max.

Why can't people do the same with Mormons?

It is pure and simply bigotry on the part of many blindingly spiteful conservatives.

It almost makes me rethink my admiration for Freepers (the hate-mongers, anyway).

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Ahem...

Did you realize that the MORMONS you are defending DO follow the works of one prophet and then another?

Miserable, pathetic existence?

You must not spend a great deal of time with Christians. We follow a path of peace and reconciliation. There are no “hanging threads” or issues that need to be re-examined. Being born again gives us the assurance that the future holds all that our hearts have ever wished for.

Jealous, much?

[FastCoyote]

“You are attacking Mormon beliefs, you are not discussing the issues. I suppose that is a concept that just flies right past you isn’t it? From a rational perspective your beliefs are just as ludicrous. Do you really believe the world was flooded 4,400 years ago? LOL”

Ummmm, I don’t believe that. But of course you have to set up bowling pins of styrofoam so they are lite enough for you to knock over. Okay, you get a brown star for effort.

“This is the odd part, your statement has absolutely no basis in fact. Joseph Smith was not secessionist at all.”

Let’s see, he sets up an army and makes himself General, he calls a Council of 50 and has himself ordained King, he runs for the presidency and sends out campaigners (because he believes he has a chance in hell), he becomes in essence dictator of Nauvoo and posits a theocracy. Oh, he was a secessionist all right. But spin spin spin wash dry spin spin spin.

“Of course dissembling is your stock in trade isn’t it?”

hum, you just dissembled twice above so I guess we all know who is who.

“Why would a Mormon be running for President if the goal of the Mormons was to secede from the Union? Do you understand the concept of logic?”

Well yes. Joseph Smith was a crazy nutcase on an ego trip who when he lost his presidential bid would have no place to go but secession. And can you explain his being a General and being ordained king if he wasn’t trying to carve out his own little independent theocracy? So apparently you have provided signs of a lack of logical abilities right here for all to see.

“I prefer to shine the light of truth on the anti’s to expose your hypocrocy.”

Oh yes, we are all lying idiots while you alone are a beacon of truth and enlightenment. Let me bow down to your greater infallible wisdom oh exalted one. Surely you are smarter, richer, wiser, fairer, more beautiful than any anti could ever be. I stand in absolute awe of how you have exposed us.

“I didn’t call for censure,”

Oh come now, how much spin can we take. I believe the word you used was “dissembling”

“but I have been cursed and condemned by you anti’s for speaking the truth.”

Or, perhaps you were condemned for being a spinner of half truths and your huge ego was disproportionately hurt.

“It is clear that your purpose is to attack Mormonism and not debate the relevant issues of today.”

Since morality is the issue of the day, I don’t see how Romney’s religion is not relevant. And your purpose is to shut off all debate of Romney’s religion (that’s called censorship), so denial of free speech is apparently what you consider relevant.

“What is your real purpose?”

To get a sane president who doesn’t have a God complex? I would think after all this time you could figure that out.

[LeGrande]

Hey LG, I wondered where you were.

Probably looking for Fosset.

My point has been that I do not support Mitt on political grounds. When that is said I am called a bigot, anti-LDS etc. When I state what my LDS side of they family says I am called a liar, ill-informed, etc.
Have I said that LDS is a cult, yes and I have a right to say that, and do not apologize.

I don't like Mitts political positions either, but what does the fact that religions are cults have to do with that?

I think the real issue is that there are those who act as though discourse is shrill and belittling if not agreed with.

No, the real issue here is people like you who don't discuss the relevant issues. The fact that Boggs issued an extermination order against the Mormons almost 200 years ago isn't really an issue is it? Or anything else that happened 200 years ago.

[colorcountry]

But your claim that they view God the same as Christians is waaaaaay off base.

Never claimed that they did. You are trying to put words into my mouth. And so the rest of your argument is futile. You are arguing points that I agree with.

Jews are honest in their beliefs. I've never heard one claim, "we are Christian just like you," in an attempt to fool you about "sacred" (secret) beliefs.

[JRochelle]

So Novak thinks Romney should declare a religious test as un-American.

Thats sure to work.

All of you who don’t like my religion are un-Amercian so vote for me!

[colorcountry]

You don’t get it. Do you want to see garments or not. I offered, and you rejected my offer simply because I no longer attend my Mormon Ward.

You are being deceptive and you know it.

[Edit35]

What an occultic bunch of (Mormon) nonsense that has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity.

Can you explain Rosary beads?

How about praying to St. Mary? Or any of the Catholic saints?

Where in the Bible does it command repeating the Hail Mary prayer over and over?

Or eating fish on Friday?

What about the Pope as a diefied appointment to represent mankind?

What about the Pope's ordering of imprisonment of non-believers (in Midievel times) or any other past atrocities as perpetrated by the Catholic Church?

Where are any of these things found in the Bible.

Yet I still love, respect, and would vote for a good practicing Catholic in a New York minute.

Why can't people do the same for Mormons, who as a group, have been one of the most patriotic and family value oriented groups ever to grace the American political landscape.

[Paulus Invictus]

The Church hasn’t grown in two decades? Huh! It’s the fastest growing Church in the US and booming overseas. Well over 13 million world-wide. Pretty big for a Christian “cult.” Oh, and it’s nothing like a madrassa. It teaches Christ’s Gospel, not Muslim ideals.

[greyfoxx39]

That said, I think most mormons take the good out of the religion and don’t pay much attention to the nuttyness.

I don't know what you would define as "nuttyness", however mormons are encouraged and expected to make regular visits to their temples in which they perform secret rituals to baptize the dead of any and all faiths in order that the dead may become "worthy" to reach the "exaltation" believed in by themselves.

This is a very important part of mormon culture.

Other temple rituals include performing marriages for "time and eternity" which is also a very important part of mormon culture.

Admittance to their temples is only allowed to those who are deemed "worthy" enough to gain a temple "recommend" which is provided after the following interview:

Here is a list of works Mormons must perform in order to be “worthy” to take part in the Temple “endowments” and “covenants.” You will be questioned by your Bishop or Stake President in order to be deemed “worthy.”

 

1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

 

2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

 

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

 

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

 

5 Do you live the law of chastity?

 

6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

 

7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

 

8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

 

9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

 

10 Are you a full-tithe payer?

 

11 Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?

 

12 Do you have financial or other oblgations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?

 

13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:

 

Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

 

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

 

15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord’s house and participate in temple ordinances?

 

 

  Note that in the case of couples being married in the LDS temple, ONLY those witness or family who have a temple recommend are allowed to be present at the wedding ceremony. Those who are not "worthy" are required to wait outside until the ceremony is over, and then may take part in the wedding pictures.

[DanielLongo]

I spoke of individuals, not of religions. I did not know "pastors" were a religion. My point stands. Pastors who insist on being paid for their ministry have their reward. Are you a pastor?

but there are many who silently agree with us.

And I'm supposed to care?

[svcw]

Never talked about Boggs. Do not even know who he is. I do not care what the LDS were 200 years ago, what I care about is Mitts political positions now.
However, if I say that the response is nearly always the same I am a bigot, anti-LDS, etc. So it is then that the posts may evolve into discussion of religion (beliefs).
My experience is that the LDS who post here make such an issue of Mitts beliefs that it is they who devolve into “beliefs” and bigotry.
And I will say it again it is those who support Mitt who claim shrill and and irrelevant arguments when you try and explain why you are not supporting him in the primaries.

[Paulus Invictus]

No he didn’t! He castigated the Media Matters people and Soros. Where did you read otherwise?

[DanielLongo]

No, he doesn’t. LOL! Do you wear a collar? LOL.

[colorcountry]

I guess you are trying to “educate” me about Mormons. And how do you know anything at all about them?

I don’t try to explain Rosary beads, or Saints or Hail Marys. I am not Catholic and I have never been one. That discussion is left to those who actually know.

Now tell me again, why should I listen to you about Mormonism, I was born into an LDS family of six generations, and spent a good portion of my life learning the “sacred” teachings. Don’t even go there about how much “better” Mormons are than the rest of us. They are people, and as such are just as capable of sin, crime and abhorence as the rest of us. Believe me....they aren’t any better. But I suppose their public relations campaign has worked. They have you fooled.