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USA seeks new gun for tiltrotor
Flightglobal.com ^ | 21 Sept 2007 | Stephen Trimble

Posted on 09/21/2007 8:36:34 AM PDT by Yo-Yo

A Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey may soon be equipped with a gun within the cabin that can fire on targets at all angles relative to the aircraft's position.

US Special Operations Command (SOCOM) has disclosed that it is seeking a vendor to provide an "interim all-quadrant defensive weapon system" for its CV-22 tiltrotors. SOCOM would require flight testing to begin within 120 days of a contract award, according to a solicitation document posted on 14 September.

The notice may be a signal that SOCOM believes it needs greater self-protection on the CV-22 than currently available on the aircraft. As an interim measure, the US Marine Corps has installed a .50-calibre gun on the tail ramp of its MV-22 fleet, which is now making its combat debut in Iraq.

"Anything that the services want to pursue to get them to a weapon system that works for their needs we want to support," says Naval Air Systems Command.

But proposals for an all-quadrant gun have been shelved for several years due to a lack of funds. The V-22 programme office is seeking to obtain $82 million in supplemental defence spending for fiscal year 2008 to launch development of such a weapon, but the SOCOM initiative would move even faster.

Previous studies on installing an internal gun have focused on the aircraft's nose, but SOCOM's solicitation would require placing the weapon inside the cabin. The most obvious location would be in the so-called "hell-hole" in the cabin floor.

Both the USMC and SOCOM are considering a range of weapon types, from a 7.62mm minigun to a .50-calibre machine gun to a grenade launcher.


TOPICS: Government
KEYWORDS: aerospace; banglist; miltech; usmc; v22osprey
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To: ryan71

Of course, when you go retractable, you add weight, which is never a good thing with an aircraft.


21 posted on 09/21/2007 9:28:44 AM PDT by PAR35
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To: Southack

The CF rotors are stronger than the steel and aluminum ones they replace and will shrug off small arms fire.


22 posted on 09/21/2007 9:57:08 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: ryan71
Maybe, maybe not. The B-17's ball turret was a semi-retractable type (it didn't fully recess into the fuselage) and it didn't take up a lot of room.

A low profile semi-retractable turret should work just fine for the beast. I personally still favor a chin turret for simplicity, but we've put belly turrets on non-bombers before.

Something like that turret might not even need to be retractable, if they mount a 7.62mm minigun.

23 posted on 09/21/2007 10:02:52 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Yo-Yo

“that can fire on targets at all angles relative to the aircraft’s position. “

Call me crazy, but I think there may just be a few angles with traverse and elevation limits.


24 posted on 09/21/2007 10:13:53 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: Spktyr

Anything on the belly is gonna be useless on the ground.

I’m expecting something in the nose, but not slung like the Apache.

More of the Cobra’s gun (especially the late 1960s minigun/grenade combo) but up a little higher (like where the Apache keeps its TADS system.


25 posted on 09/21/2007 10:17:12 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: SJSAMPLE

Anything in the nose will be useless against lateral threats (can’t turn past 90 degrees).

The underslung gun can work “on the ground” - or at least close to it, remember the Osprey is likely to hover instead of land while the troops run up or down the rear ramp.


26 posted on 09/21/2007 10:27:28 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Yo-Yo

Why re-invent the wheel?


27 posted on 09/21/2007 10:31:21 AM PDT by Camel Joe (liberal=socialist=royalist/imperialist pawn=enemy of Freedom)
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To: Spktyr
A belly mounted turret would not be able to fire while on the ground. Also, a single turret wouldn't be able to cover the entire aircraft during a hovering extraction.

Video here of a Jolly Green extraction in Vietnam in 1972.

28 posted on 09/21/2007 10:33:52 AM PDT by Yo-Yo (USAF, TAC, 12th AF, 366 TFW, 366 MG, 366 CRS, Mtn Home AFB, 1978-81)
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To: Spktyr
Our helos put the guns out the side and they're far more useful at the hover or landing than in flight. The Osprey will be at most risk at hover, and it will have to land to disgorge most troops and cargo in most situations.

Not to mention the damage to the gun.
I've been on more than a few UH-60s and UH-1s that have come down hard. It's practically SOP to bounce the UH-60, without stopping, while everybody jumps falls out the sides.

Heck, I don't think an underslung gun could be accessed for maintenance, even.

But, I think we can all agree that that thing needs a gun or four.
29 posted on 09/21/2007 10:39:10 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: Spktyr

And the chin gun in the Apache is 120 degrees, IIRC.

It will most likely be controlled by the co-pilot with automatic slew and az limitations, so anything the co-pilot can’t see won’t be engaged anyway.


30 posted on 09/21/2007 10:40:28 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: SJSAMPLE

The chin gun on the Apache is underslung, which you said you didn’t want....


31 posted on 09/21/2007 10:45:59 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Southack

I just watched a show on Carbon Fiber products last night on the History Channel and they were bragging about how it is stronger than steel. Are they lying?


32 posted on 09/21/2007 10:46:28 AM PDT by fish hawk (The religion of Darwinism = Monkey Intellect)
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To: SJSAMPLE

Well, it’s got a tail gun to cover the ramp, at least.


33 posted on 09/21/2007 10:48:04 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: fish hawk

Nope. CF is stronger than steel weight for weight. However, once you exceed its strength modulus, it shatters instead of bending.


34 posted on 09/21/2007 10:49:42 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Spktyr
"....likely to hover instead of land while the troops run up or down the rear ramp."

I believe that would be quite UNlikely.

Landing would provide a much safer, more stable platform, and not all the aircraft's weight would need to be on the gear. That would provide very fast response to takeoff power.

35 posted on 09/21/2007 10:59:24 AM PDT by diogenes ghost
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To: diogenes ghost

Yes, but landing can set off land mines, as we found out in Vietnam...


36 posted on 09/21/2007 11:03:10 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Spktyr

Can’t shoot the engine nacelles from there ;)


37 posted on 09/21/2007 11:07:00 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: Yo-Yo
I suspect the Marines want a gunship for close in support when these babies go in to make deliveries. Right now the ramp mounted .50 is not very practical for troop protection. But this might help with one mounted on both sides of the craft as a gunship and it won't matter which configuration they were in.


38 posted on 09/21/2007 11:18:58 AM PDT by Pistolshot (Keyes/Paul '08 - When you can't get crazy enough.)
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To: fish hawk; Spktyr

The carbon fiber rotors on the MV-22 are *designed* to sheer off if the pilot chooses to land like an airplane instead of hover.

You will note that the rotors are so tall that they hit the ground when the engine nacelles are horizontal.

That is why the MV-22 is supposed to always land and take off vertically like a helicopter instead of horizontally like an airplane.

My concern is that carbon fiber rotors designed to sheer off in a horizontal landing are vulnerable to being shattered by small arms fire.

Have the Marines touted the rotors as being bullet proof or to even being tested for their survivability against small arms fire?

If no such tests are public, then you can write off the rotors as vulnerable.


39 posted on 09/21/2007 11:38:55 AM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: lesser_satan

Try the 30mm chain gun set up on the AH64 Apache.


40 posted on 09/21/2007 11:41:35 AM PDT by Hydroshock ("The Constitution should be taken like mountain whiskey -- undiluted and untaxed." - Sam Ervin)
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