Posted on 08/20/2007 9:18:44 AM PDT by mojito
Even though Mitt Romney can't seem to dislodge Rudy Giuliani atop the national GOP polls, and can't even draw as much poll support as Fred Thompson, who isn't even running yet, there is an understandable anticipatory buzz about him.
He may well be the eventual choice of his party if the Thompson phenomenon fizzles or if Giuliani supporters simply grow weary of navigating the obstacles posed by his past and his politics.
In an appearance in Texas last week, I saw Romney energize a crowd with just the kind of speech a GOP nominee should give-- strong and unapologetic on the war, upbeat and resolute about the future. This is a typical Romney performance, and it earns him speculation that he has nowhere to go but up.
This is wholly deserved. But the issue of his religion, which some say has been overplayed, has in fact not been addressed with nearly the thoroughness and honesty that will be necessary to satisfy some in the Republican voting base.
It has not been addressed well by the candidate, and it has not been handled honestly by pundits. Until it is, it lurks as a torpedo that could spell the doom of his promising candidacy.
(Excerpt) Read more at realclearpolitics.com ...
That is exactly what you do when you say Mormons are not Christian. I am Mormon, I am Christian, I am a follower of Christ. I appreciate that your family has a life dedicated to Christ. I draw the line however when you use that to say Mormons cannot equally be converted to Christ.
Interestingly my family's Christ related service parralells some of your own. My own grandfather was District President over Minnesota, South and North Dakota and Iowa. My other Grandfather served a mission in pre-war Germany bringing the message of Christ in a time it was dangerous to do so. He and his companion got arrested by the gestapo once. He tok a picture of Hitler in a parade and the S.S. took his camera away.
I rejoice that your family dedicated their lives to Christ.
Its about the FLDS.
Ayn Rand. I guess I’m wrong. You really were an atheist.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m no Ayn Rand acolyte. I’m no acolyte of any kind.
But you’ve convinced me. You really have been around the block!
LOLOLOLOL
That has got to be the greatest tag line of all time.
Go back and RE-READ what you quoted me as saying.
I cannot determine if YOU have salvation.
I cannot determine if my brother-in-law has salvation.
I cannot determine if my husband has salvation.
I cannot determine if my son has salvation.
This is God’s decision to make, alone.
I believe I have found salvation through Christ. That is the ONLY salvation that I can accurately gauge. Everyone else has their own walk with Christ.
Ah yes the antislavery stance caused an uproar in Missouri.
Do Mormons believe that they will one day become like God and populate their own planets? Can you elaborate on this aspect of your beliefs? Do Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the spiritual brother of Satan?
Rev. 3: 21
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
John 10
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
The only place you find in the scriptures where someone says it is blasphemy to accept what Christ has promised, the achievement of godhood through Jesus Christ, is from the very people who killed the Lord.
I can in brief explain the "populate planets" question. Again this is extra-Biblical, but not anti-Biblical. Indeed, the Lord God never said the Bible was the final or only testimony that He has given or ever will give to His children. In essence, the Lord's work is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. The universe is an eternal dominion where intelligence is raised up, created (in the sense that one gathers the materials to build a ship - not to mean "creating something out of nothing"). The universe has no beginning and no end. We are here in a part of our progression as intelligent beings to be tested and tried, as the scriptures say, to be proven herewith whether we will keep all the commandments of the Lord. This mortal experience far from being a mere test of principles is calculated to give us experience and knowledge. It is a path that our Father encourages us along out of love and the desire that we have every happiness that He now enjoys. As any loving father, he desires the best for us. We are obedient because we understand (hopefully) that He is the only source of that light and knowledge. In the eternities we engage in that grand work, to organize, to bring forth, to exalt and continue the work of God. His joy is found in the uplifting of all. His joy is increased as we find joy. This is why element obeys Him.
Now for your second question.
Do Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the spiritual brother of Satan?
Once more you cannot show me in the scriptures where it says that this is not the case. But disproving a negative is a circular mire. Let me tell you what we believe.
The "work" which I described above did not begin here on earth. We are all children of our Father in Heaven, spiritually begotten.
Num. 16: 22 (Num. 27: 16) God of the spirits of all flesh.
Job 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Eccl. 12: 7 the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Jer. 1: 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee.
Zech. 12: 1 Lord . . . formeth the spirit of man within him.
John 9: 2 who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind. (implying of course that the man had a premortal existence, otherwise how could he have sinned before birth)
Acts 17: 28 poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Rom. 8: 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.
Eph. 1: 4 chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.
Heb. 12: 9 subjection unto the Father of spirits.
Jude 1: 6 angels which kept not their first estate.(Our knowledge is that this "first estate" refers to their allegiance to Father. Those who were not were cast out. Mind you, not for a "disagreement", but for rebellion. Father is very long suffering and would have witheld this ultimate action were it possible. But Lucifer rebelled and drew a third of the host of heaven after him. He, like ourselves was not robbed of his agency, his ability to choose. He chose disasterously wrong- as did those who followed his council.)
Rev. 12: 7 Michael and his angels fought against the dragon. (We believe that Michael was/is also one of our spirit brothers)
I took some time to put these thoughts down and my time is precious- family and so forth. I would like to continue if you are at all interested and have read this. If not, please reply and say so.
Ruth 2: 12 12 The LORD recompense thy work, and a full reward be given thee of the LORD God of Israel, under whose wings thou art come to trust.
2 Chr. 15: 7 7 Be ye strong therefore, and let not your hands be weak: for your work shall be rewarded.
Job 7:1 Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of an hireling? 2 As a servant earnestly desireth the shadow, and as an hireling looketh for the reward of his work:
Prov. 11: 18 18 The wicked worketh a deceitful work: but to him that soweth righteousness shall be a sure reward.
Isa. 40: 10 16 Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Matt. 7: 21, 24, 26
James 2: 14, 17-18, 20, 22, 24, 26 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
Getting this back to Mitt Romney. I don’t know the answer to this question, but I believe it is a fair question to ask. Are any of the pronouncements of the LDS President authoritative for Mormons in the same way the “ex cathedra” pronouncements from the Pope are authoritative for Roman Catholics?
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
My religion? I'm Catholic, what are you? Next question, please?
James 2: 19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
If it were enough to just believe in God, the devils would be saved.
Here is a summary of a discourse given by the President (Prophet)Ezra Taft Benson of the LDS Church regarding following the Prophet.
In conclusion, let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet,” for our salvation hangs on them.
First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.
Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
Sixth: The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.
Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.
Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.
You may find the entirety of the speech at http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/priesthood/prophets/follow_the_prophet.html
I’m thinking of a pronouncement regarding something that is not currently on the political horizon. Something that would be necessary doctrine for a Mormon to ascribe to or be declared apostate. The fact that the LDS President does not agree with Harry Reid politically does not address my question.
Most Republicans (including myself) would have NO problem voting for a Jew, even though he or she rejects my Christian belief of redemption and salvation.
Yet those same people are going loopy over Romney's Mormon beliefs, even though the tenants of his religion are approx. 80-percent in common with mainstream Christianity.
It just don't make sense.
Denying that Jesus is the Christ would be a sign of apostacy. It is not my intent to be flippant. Is this what you mean? If someone strove to lead people from the teachings of the Church, I’m sure that would be considered apostacy. If you refer instead to excommunication or being “removed” from the body of the Church, murder and adultery would be two that would qualify. Is this what you mean?
Let me say right now, if you do not understand the meaning of FREE GIFT, and think that that means you have to WORK for this FREE GIFT, I have nothing else to discuss with you. Because if we cannot agree on the nature of this gift, we cannot discuss the rewards of this gift.
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