Posted on 07/10/2007 8:44:13 AM PDT by Do Be
I just wanted to throw this out to get other opinions before I send out this email.
The short version, so as to understand this email, is that my 17 year old son works for a small company.
One day, when the owner and his son had left the site of the business for the day, my son drove a vehicle he was told not to, and was in an accident(off road, hit a tree). With him was a 16 year old whose arm was broken. My son recieved a cut eyelid and a good thump on his knee.
There was about $1500-$2000 damage done to the vehicle which my son told the owner he would pay for and they agreed that the owner would take half his wages until it was paid.
In addition, they sold my son a $500 car. We paid for the car a few weeks ago but they delayed getting the title to me until yesterday, and on the back of the title had put a $1200 lien.
THE EMAIL:
Good morning.
I am not in accord with, and somewhat confused by your motives of, the "lien" you wrote on the back of the car title. The problem is that this pushes the entire affair into the “legal” realm.
Your agreement about the money owed by Alex to you, for the damage to the vehicle that he was in the accident with, is with Alex, not with me, and is, at most, a gentleman’s agreement.
Alex is a minor. As such, his agreement with you may or may not be a legal one. I have not gotten in the way of this agreement, or tried to influence it in any way, because unless there is a need for “dad” to get involved, Alex is at the age where I am trying to stay out of his business.
In my mind, you are as much accountable as Alex for this accident. Your decision to hire minors at your place of business comes with the responsibility to provide a safe environment, including adequate supervision. The fact that boys will be boys and kids are kids is a fact of life and must be taken into account when hiring minors. At least in my mind.
I am in not saying that I know better than you how to run your business, but it seems to me that if you leave your workplace in the hands of unsupervised minors you can probably expect an accident or two.
In essence, I purchased, for $500, a 1995 Ford Taurus with 200,000 miles, in unknown mechanical condition, in the hopes that I could fix it up cheaply enough for Alex to have something to drive.
Until I have a valid title, I don’t really have the car. I don’t know why it took so long for me to get the title but now, with the lien on the back, I still do not have the title because there is no way I can use it.
Why did you do this without first speaking with me? Now that it is written in ink on the back of the title it is an issue. One I don’t have time for right now but Alex tells me you are about to go to Alaska for a month or so. I have no need for a non functional, unregisterable vehicle to be sitting in front of my house for the next month or so until you get back and we figure out what to do about all of this.
I asked Alex where the figure of $1,200 came from. He doesn’t know.
I asked Alex how much you are saying he needs to pay you until his “debt” is paid. He doesn’t know.
I asked Alex how much he has paid to you so far. He doesn’t know.
He tells me that instead of you taking half of each paycheck until the account is settled, as was previously discussed, you are keeping every other paycheck, of undetermined(because he doesn’t work set hours)and undocumented(because you have given him no accounting) amount.
Alex is a kid. He doesn’t know that there are laws governing such things. Nor does he realize that once things are taken beyond a handshake agreement into the legal realm, they can become a little daunting, and it is then that one needs to be more careful.
Alex was taken to a doctor the day after the accident. He had his eye checked out to make sure there would be no damage to his vision, and his knee x-rayed. The conclusion at the time was that he was probably going to be okay.
His knee has been hurting him, on and off, since then. Sometimes the pain lasts for a couple days and sometimes for just a few hours. My wife and I have spoken about it and decided to wait to see if it will not simply correct itself, but enough time has gone by now that we think the doctor should probably look at it again.
And as we discussed it, we realized that there has been no Worker’s Compensation claim filed for this accident.
One more thing, which confuses me a little. You told me this past Sunday when I picked Alex up that he was probably a little angry with you because you had been riding him a little hard all day. That you had observed him, on one of your surveillance cameras, standing around when he should have been working and that you called him and asked him what he was doing and he said working and you said, “No you’re not.” With the implication that you two had sort of played this game all day until he was exasperated with you.
When I asked him about this later, he said that this had not taken place at all. This is not the first time that you have related something to me about Alex and when I have spoken to him about it he has claimed that either the event had not taken place at all or that his version was not compatible with yours. I have registered such things in the back of my mind but I usually don’t get into “he said, she said” issues.
But this time, he said, “I can prove it this time,” and gave me his cell phone. There was no call from you to him on that day.
In short, you and I need to talk. I have emailed you first, as much to put down my concerns so that I may better see them, as to give you a head’s up before we talk.
I do a lot in my life based on a handshake and my instincts tell me to ask for advice on this one.
Good advice would be appreciated, as would wiseacre comments which lead to smiles and laughter. Nasty people, go away.
Much of what you said is true.
My suggestion is to pay the $1200, let your son find another job and pay you rather than his employer.
That way, no lawyers, no welching by the boss or your son, and a clean break and solution.
In my view, so far, he got off easy.
Second, because Alex is a minor, and you are his legal guardian, the lien against the title seems perfectly legitimate and reasonable.
Well, your son drove a car he was told not to and was in an accident. Generally minors who do this place the lability on their parents for restitution. Like it or not your son is responsible for his own actions.
The title with a lien written on the back of it is strange indeed. I believe you are correct the cars is not your if you do not have the tittle.
I wish you well this could get ugly as well as very complicated.
In California minors can not enter into any contracts, ie: if my daughter bought a car at 16, totaled it then wanted her money back to bad for the seller, as the contract was not valid to begin with.
I am not an attorney. I offer no advice. But this is going to be a great thread, in my opinion.
Further a lien only covers what happens when the car is sold, sounds like the car will go to the junkyard instead when it is done being used by your son.
See if you can get him to put all of his "demands"--actual, financial figures, that is--in writing. When an agreement is reached, both of you should sign said agreement and have it notarized. Then hand him a check for the money and help your son get another job, so he can pay you off.
In short, trusting this guy would be as smart as a chipmunk cuddling a rattlesnake. Don't do it.
Was the accident due to some type of work related activity or did he “borrow” the car for something else?
Who was the kid in the car with him?
Why was he in the car with him?
I ask because the answers might help shed some additional light on this and determine whether or not your son or his employer is liable for the damages to the vehicle.
Your son should be responsible for his actions...
Sounds like he didn't learn this lesson at home.
It would be hard for the owner to involve authorities on this since he had already made an agreement. And, since he has been playing games with the compensation that opens him up to hassles with the state employment folks.
Best to get this resolved in a timely fashion and then move on.
Dad should charge interest on the loan to son as well.
I think your meddling in this is bad for your son. You call him a kid, but magically, he will soon be a legal adult. Teach him to stand on his own two feet, and don't rescue or fight his battles for him. Only help as little as possible when he asks you to. That way he has a chance to become a man.
It wasn't a car, it is an off road work vehicle that he has driven before to do his work. He was told not to drive it while the owner was away. He was goofing off, I think. He may have been showing off for the other kid who was a new employee. They were the only two employees there at the time, except for the wife of the owner, who was inside her house doing other things.
Who was the kid in the car with him?
The other kid was a 16 year old working there also.
Why was he in the car with him?
It was probably more fun than working.
Do Be, post #12 was meant for you.
I am not a lawyer, but there are a few on the NC boards who could probably help you.
First, your son was wrong in his actions. Regardless, the business owner should never handled things the way he did, IMHO. Were it me, I would have called you, as your son is a minor and you are responsible for him, discussed how to make reparations and put it all in writing, signed, notarized and copies sent to mine and your lawyer. Your son would have been immediately fired.
But, since that is not what happened, I would say you first need to talk to this owner about paying off the debt in full. Put it in writing, sign and notarize it before you pay for ANYTHING. Make sure to also include a date for the debt to be paid off. I would not worry about getting him to pay you doctor’s bills or anything like that, mainly because he could have really gone after your kid. I would also make sure the agreement states that NO garnishing of your son’s wages will occur. Once you pay it off, make sure your son’s garnished wages comes from you taking his paycheck to pay you back!
Once everything is in writing, I would tell the guy your son is turning in his two week notice that minute, unless he wants your son to leave immediately. If he works the two weeks, tell him not to get into any arguments or any disagreement with the owner or anyone else. Just do his job and keep quite. Sounds like the guy will try to push his buttons. Tell him not to let the guy bother him. Play him the scene from “The Longest Yard” (the new version, not the old Burt Reynolds one) where the guards try to get the star runnign back into trouble. THAT is how he should react to this guy’s provocations, if he tries to rile him up. Hopefully, no issues will arise and he can leave with little fanfare.
Finally, make him pay you back the full amount. Again, put it in writing just as if you would some neighbor. Not to make it impersonal, but to teach him a lesson in how the real world operates. He would have to live by the payment agreement or punishment prescribed in the agreement would be enacted. Take away his Playstation for a week if he misses payment or something like that.
Good luck to you and I hoep it doesn’t get messy.
Talk to a lawyer.
Yes, talk to a lawyer! If your son is a minor this whole deal made for repayment may be bogus. It appears your son needs a good talking to Dad! Yes, it was his fault and he should be held accountable but all of this should be handled by legal experts. Seek the help of a professional in this situation and don’t send and letters or emails yourself. They are useless, in my opinion.
Your son got off pretty easily here. You don't want him learning the lesson that somebody or something will always be there to bail him out. Ignorance of the law is no excuse for anything.
Ask yourself, and your counsel, if you engage any, what will be the best way for your son to have a positive, responsible growth from this, without compromising his physical health.
Besides, it was a spontaneous thing. We were sitting at McDonald's on the way home from his work when I told him what the owner had said. He had no reason to think that the owner would had said anything to me if the incident happened or not, and would have had no reason to think that I would have said anything to him or to delete the record of any calls from that day.
Thanks
1. I think the employer placing a lien against the car is a very reasonable (and prudent) thing, provided the lien is for the correct amount.
2. Your son, as a matter of law, is entitled to an accounting for his hours worked and wages paid/withheld.
3. If it comes down to it, it is illegal for an employer to withhold wages for any purpose without the written consent of the employee (except certain garnishments). You could play legal hardball on this point if the employer won't account for the hours/wages.
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