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To: burzum
Show me the Step by Step “evolution” of the eye that “scientists demonstrated” not to be irreducibly complex. (hint: you might need some help on this one). And don’t tell me that the light sensitive receptor of early creatures “evolved” into the human eye by random mutations, while your at it, also tell me how the early light sensitive receptor “eye” came about in the first place.
144 posted on 07/08/2007 1:26:15 PM PDT by razzle (Liberal Science: Experiments on unborn babies, man-made global warming, and darwinism.)
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To: razzle

I’m not going to tell you anything. That is your own job. I’m not your personal researcher. Evolution of the eye is justified and there is plenty of literature on the topic if you actually decide to read it rather than continue spouting your Creationism in this echo chamber. I’ll give you some hints:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye
What Evolution Is, Ernst Mayr (you can find it on Amazon.com)


145 posted on 07/08/2007 1:52:57 PM PDT by burzum (None shall see me, though my battlecry may give me away -Minsc)
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To: razzle; burzum; Coyoteman
Show me the Step by Step “evolution” of the eye that “scientists demonstrated” not to be irreducibly complex. (hint: you might need some help on this one). And don’t tell me that the light sensitive receptor of early creatures “evolved” into the human eye by random mutations, while your at it, also tell me how the early light sensitive receptor “eye” came about in the first place.

Why don't you crack open a science journal or two instead of spending all your time on creationist pamphlets, and stop asking us to do your homework for you?

Anti-evolution creationists who haven't bothered to actually look at the available research waste our time with such requests so often that I'll just refer you to some of my prior posts on the topic:

Take the eyeball for example. How could vision have evolved?

Gradually from light-sensing nerves, as are present in many primitive organisms.

Because the eye is made up of components, it could not have evolved, because each component is useless without the rest of them. optic nerves, lenses, retina's rods cones, the vision center of the brain. each would have been useless without any one of the other components.

Wrong, but then you'd have to know a tiny little bit about biology to know why. Which is why that leaves out most of the creationists.

Euglenids have functional eyespots, and get along just fine *without* most of the things you list. Oops, so much for your false presumptions.

Cubomedusans have eyes, but not "vision centers" in their brains. Truth be told, they don't really have "brains" either, they have simple nerve ganglions. Even worse for your presumptions, larval cubomedusans don't have *any* nervous system, and the more primitive eyes among its multiplicity of eye types are literally hardwired directly to cilia which move one way when light is detected by its attached eye, and another way when light is not detected. In this way the larva moves appropriately (well, usually) in the presence of light in a purely reflexive manner, with *no* involvement of (or processing by) a nervous system of any type whatsoever. Sorry, you're proven wrong again by nature.

Speaking of nature, here are several types of light-sensing organs actually found in nature (from How Do Eyes Work and How Did They Evolve? ):

Contrary to your false presumptions, eyes with fewer components than human eyes work well enough to get along after all, *and* there's an obvious stepwise progression between the types:




Fig. 2
The likely evolution of single-chambered eyes. Arrows indicate functional developments, not specific evolutionary pathways.
From Land and Fernald [4].

a Pit eye, common throughout the lower phyla.
b Pinhole of Haliotis (abalone) or Nautilus.
c Eye with a lens.
d Eye with homogeneous lens, showing failure to focus.
e Eye with lens having a gradient of refractive index.
f Multiple lens eye of male Pontella.
g Two-lens eye of the copepod crustacean Copilia. Solid arrow shows image position and open arrow the movement of the second lens.
h Terrestrial eye of Homo sapiens with cornea and lens;
Ic= image formed by cornea alone;
Ir= final image on the retina.
i Mirror eye of the scallop Pecten.

Also see the video at: evolution of the eye.

Care to try again?

Even Darwin admitted later that his evolution theory probably is wrong because of these facts.

Again, will you PLEASE stop posting utter falsehoods? This claim of yours is ridiculous and false. It's obviously just a rehash of the usual dishonest creationist out-of-context Darwin quote about the eye. What's *especially* dishonest about the misuse of this quote is that the original appears at the start of a section where Darwin LAID OUT A PLAUSIBLE EVOLUTIONARY PATH FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF EYES, based on KNOWN PRIMITIVE EYES IN THE ANIMAL KINGDOM. In other words, not only was Darwin *NOT* actually claiming that the complexity of the eye was a problem for evolution (as misrepresented by creationists), he actually went on to ANSWER THE QUESTIONS THAT CREATIONISTS HAVE BEEN ASKING EVER SINCE. Just *how* willfully ignorant does one have to be in order to remain a creationist? They steal quotes from 1859, misuse them, then ask "challenging" questions that were ALREADY answered in that same 1859 source. Just how dishonest, ignorant, and behind on their reading are the creationists, anyway?

Try reading some actual Darwin and some actual biology sometime, guys. Maybe you'll stop making fools of yourselves for a change.

And:
We don't know how to explain say the design of an eyeball, as a scientifically possible evolution with any statistical chance of occurring in the span of ten trillion universes, even once, on one planet.

Sure we do -- have you bothered to actually *look* at the science journals before saying something like this?

So "we" don't know how to explain the origins of the eyeball, as an evolutionary scenario? Oooookay. Pull the other leg now:

Uncovering The Ancestry of A Complex Organ, The Eye

The Visual System II

The Evolution of Eyes

The Evolution of Color Vision

Life's Grand Design

Life's Grand Design (II)

How Could An Eye Evolve?

And those are just some pages for *laymen*. If you really want to get into the gritty details, read some actual journal articles on the subject, for example:
Cubozoan jellyfish: an Evo/Devo model for eyes and other sensory systems
To give a taste of the vast amount of research that has actually been published on this subject (which the creationists routinely falsely mischaracterize as as if nothing at all is actually known), consider:
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Perhaps creationists "don't know" how the eye evolved, but if so it's because they're not bothering to read the science journals before they make their pronouncements. Biologists actually know a great deal about how the eye evolved, in what stages, in what lineages, at what points in time, via what genetic and molecular changes, etc. etc. There's still a lot to discover yet, of course, but the usual creationist canard of "you guys don't know nothin' and have no evidence, it's all just guesswork" is a gigantic misrepresentation.

However the argument that "We don't know how it happened, so someone must have designed it" answers nothing for me. It just regresses the magic.

Bingo! Creationists like to offer "a designer did it" as an "explanation", but it actually *explains* nothing. An actual explanation would involve details as to processes, methods, materials, etc.

And:

The evolution of trichromatic color vision by opsin gene duplication in New World and Old World primates

The Evolution of Color Vision

Molecular basis for tetrachromatic color vision

Molecular evolution of the Rh3 gene in Drosophila

Evolution of the visual cycle: the role of retinoid-binding proteins

Interphotoreceptor retinoid-binding protein. Gene characterization, protein repeat structure, and its evolution

Spectral tuning and molecular evolution of rod visual pigments in the species flock of cottoid fish in Lake Baikal

The receptor kinase family: primary structure of rhodopsin kinase reveals similarities to the beta-adrenergic receptor kinase

The evolution of rhodopsins and neurotransmitter receptors

Optimization, constraint, and history in the evolution of eyes

A pessimistic estimate of the time required for an eye to evolve

Sequence analysis of teleost retina-specific lactate dehydrogenase C: evolutionary implications for the vertebrate lactate dehydrogenase gene family

The eye of the blind mole rat (Spalax ehrenbergi): regressive evolution at the molecular level

Eyes: variety, development and evolution

The Tribolium homologue of glass and the evolution of insect larval eyes

Evolution of eyes and photoreceptor cell types The evolution of eyes.

Now, *your* turn -- "why don't you explain the emergence of the eye ... using nothing but 'design'"? Be sure to show the original blueprints, the factory, reconstruct in a way consistent with all the available real-world evidence the time(s) at which various organisms with different eye types were "released" from the design studio, the "design" reasons for various features of eyes (including biochemical and DNA idiosyncracies) which make perfect sense via evolutionary origins but don't seem consistent with any rational "design" process, etc. We await *your* research results.

Oh, wait, that's right -- the "intelligent design" folks haven't *done* any research, and have no positive results of any kind supporting the conclusion they are hoping to convince people of.

194 posted on 07/08/2007 11:24:36 PM PDT by Ichneumon (Ignorance is curable, but the afflicted has to want to be cured.)
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