Posted on 06/22/2007 9:07:12 AM PDT by Caleb1411
No sarcasm, I'm serious: turn the other cheek.
I’ve been told Atheism is not a religion. If that’s true, we can ban these people from talking...
You and what army?
Careful, Tzimisce . . . Coyoteman has objective external rights conferred upon him by the random, meaningless, self-existent universe (as every "critical thinker" knows, this is "self-evident"), and any violation of said rights would cause the Earth Mother and the Universe immense grief and pain. Now you don't wanna do that . . . do you?
Now, if you'd gotten ahold of Coyoteman's ancestors back before they had evolved human intelligence, you could have killed 'em all and it wouldn't have meant a thing. But the random, meaningless, self-existent universe, you see, actually began acquiring meaning when mankind became rational. And just wait till we reach the Omega Point--it'll have even more meaning by then! Why, when the other creatures evolve human-like intelligence, the objective rights and morality the meaningless universe has so far imposed on the human race alone will be imposed on them as well! So step on that bug while you still can!
Red herring. Of COURSE they don't agree on theology, where was it ever represented that they do? But they do agree on pro-life and such rallies are about that common ground, not about theology.
It doesn't change the fact that even the most loving and generous of my evangelical friends maintain that if you don't believe in Jesus divinity, you are going to Hell.
And therefore what?
They probably also believe that if you keep driving toward a cliff, you'll fall to your death. Would you not want them to warn you about that either? Even if they turned out to be wrong, the fact is they're actually trying to look out for you. But you somehow see it as them giving you the finger. I don't get it.
So how does G-d "guide" evolution without "guiding" it?
I don't know.
Thank you for your honesty. Would you consider it theoretically possible that G-d either "guides" it or does not? I hope evolutionists will cease attacking "Divine guidance of evolution" while then loudly insisting that maybe G-d does actually guide it. Is this the type of thinking Voltaire taught you???
But according to some homeschooling creationists, I am an ignorant monkey-worshipping idolater because I seek to understand paleontology and evolution by studying empirical evidence.
1)It isn't fun being called "ignorant," is it? Do you think you and some of your allies might pause for a second before calling the people of Kansas "savages" after experiencing what it feels like?
2)Since according to anti-ID evolutionists, there is basically no difference between literalist creationism (me) and Divinely-guided evolution, perhaps anti-ID evolutionists should stop claiming that evolution "rightly understood" does not exclude G-d? Unless your "gxd" is Thomas Jefferson's, that is.
There are those who say to God "thy will be done" and those to whom God finally and reluctantly says "okay, thy will be done".
If you reject the creator and maintainer of the entire universe and the source of all good, how can you expect to be out of his presence and still reap the benefits of his presence?
How can you walk away from a campfire in the dead of winter and then complain about freezing to death?
Jeez, is everything a "red herring" or "straw man" when you ask legitimate questions about faith? Hitchens was pointing to the fact that the same Christians that were marching with Jews and Buddhists also believe those Jews and Buddhists are going to Hell if they don't accept Jesus. Olasky's example proves nothing.
Even if they turned out to be wrong, the fact is they're actually trying to look out for you. But you somehow see it as them giving you the finger.
They're looking out for me by telling me that I have to believe as they do or I'm going to fry in Hell? That's got to be the worst sales pitch I've ever heard. Thanks but no thanks.
I don't get it.
If condemning 3 billion people in Asia to eternal damnation because they haven't converted to your religion makes sense to you, then I'm sure you never will get it.
Unless, they get their hands on a real science book and learn some truth.
Since only G-d can determine Objective Morality, in His absence the superiority of "truth" over "falsehood" is illusory and constitutes an unnecessary making of outdated "rules."
As I understand it, Galileo suffered a great deal to prove that we and our planet are completely insignificant specks in an indifferent universe. If you truly believe this, why do you give a flying frick what anybody's children learn? Aren't you acting as if human life has some sort of metaphysical significance when you start demanding that "children be taught the truth?"
Before I close, please understand this. I am not a chr*stian and I'm not waiting for their "messiah" to come back (HaShem has never gone anywhere). Unlike those people who define "anti-Semitism" as ethnic bigotry, I define it as opposition to or ridicule of actual Jewish religious beliefs. If you ever reidicule the Jewish G-d or His Torah I can assure you I will request your expulsion from this forum as an anti-Semite. And I mean it.
Then what would you have us say about atheism, that it's wonderful? Especially in light of the quotes from atheist authors above? No sarcasm, I'm serious -- what in your view is the right way for us to respond?
No sarcasm, I'm serious: turn the other cheek.
Hmmm. What if you don't believe in J*sus? What if you only believe in that horrible, homophobic, genocidal Hebrew G-d of the "old testament?" How should such a person respond to these attacks?
Please don't ignore me because you don't know how to handle non-chr*stians. Thank you.
I have no allies, I'm an independent contractor in this debate. However I'm pretty sure that you would be lumped in with me by the mainstream creationist crowd here if you were to even make mention of the fact that any small amount of evolution might be true.
The existence of the Biblical G-d does not rise or fall with the truth of Evangelical Protestantism. For you to base your entire argument on the fact that "those evangelicals believe I'm going to hell!" is simply silly and has nothing to do with the issues. Now, I happen to know that their theology requires them to believe the same about me (and I know; I used to be one of them), but unlike you, this doesn't bother me. Why does it bother you? Are you perhaps afraid they are right?
The Biblical G-d was ordering the extermination of Canaanites and `Amaleqites for centuries before the first chr*stian missionary even existed. Now you may or may not like that (though since morality is determined entirely by Divine Decree you have no grounds to reject it for offending your "moral sensibilities"), but please stop the evangelical bashing and deal with the issue of whether or not the Biblical G-d exists. What evangelicals believe about where you're going has nothing to do with the argument pro or con.
Sounds like just another variant on "all who do not choose our way are going to be dealt with harshly." Even you acknowledge that a non-Jew can indeed choose, even if you ascribe no obligation to it.
My remarks on atheists being anti-Christian were not meant to leave out Jewish people, most of us are not anti-Jew, either. It's just that I usually get into tussles with Christians (or, Chr*stians, if you prefer--I don't know what you folks think you're accomplishing by leaving out letters in words) on this forum.
As most forms of Christianity have evolved today, I agree. Now, as to the way it was practiced during the time of the Thirty Years' War in Europe, it would be practically impossible to make that statement.
You are correct, I never said anything different.
Why does it bother you? Are you perhaps afraid they are right?
Not in the least. But for argument's sake, let's say the evangelicals are right. If I am in hell, I will be there with the rest of humanity that didn't believe in Christ's divinity, and I'll roast gladly with them. Think of it as sitting in solidarity with the downtrodden, while we stand in protest to the elistist country clubbers in heaven who's membership policy requires you to think exactly as they do or fry.
I guess the reason it bothers me is the apparent ease that they seem to have with 3-4 billion people being eternally condemned according to their theology. It seems irrational, and I don't like to see my friends become irrational people.
“I’ve been told Atheism is not a religion.”
Atheism is not only a secular religion, its also becoming a kind of fascism. Men like Richard Dawkins speak of prosecuting parents that pass their faith off to their kids, and mandatory atheism in public education.
You misunderstand. Non-Jews are not in the least obligated to convert to Judaism (in fact, they are discouraged from doing so). However, they are obligated to observe the Noachide Laws, the first of which, against idolatry, obliges a belief in HaShem, the True G-d. This applies to you too. No "salvation" is offered. You are merely statutorily obligated as a Noachide to obey these laws (and everyone in the entire human race either Jewish or Noachide).
I fail to see why you object to the threat of punishment to the unbelievers/disobedient. Life is full of the threat of punishment. Perhaps you are offended by G-d doing the punishing? Who had you rather do it?
My remarks on atheists being anti-Christian were not meant to leave out Jewish people, most of us are not anti-Jew, either. It's just that I usually get into tussles with Christians (or, Chr*stians, if you prefer--I don't know what you folks think you're accomplishing by leaving out letters in words) on this forum.
I leave out the letters to avoid spelling out the names of false "gxds." If you have ever read your Bible, you know that HaShem is a Jealous G-d. J*sus was a hippie wimp.
It is unfortunate that chr*stians think that all arguments for the existence of the Biblical G-d must be arguments for chr*stianity, but they are not alone at fault. When atheists attack G-d, even the Jewish G-d, they always hold chr*stianity responsible. Personally, I resent this.
My experience has been that atheists like to pose as the great defenders of the Jewish People even as they attack Jewish ideas and misattribute them to chr*stianity. Again, I resent this. If you are opposed to belief in G-d, then don't pick on some people while loudly defending the same religous beliefs in others.
Another thing, I'm no "great defender" of the Jewish people. I have them as neighbors, and I wish to get along with them. I also trust Israel far more than I trust her Arab neighbors.
I consider religion like politics, we all have the right and ability to either stay with what our parents raised us with, or we can make our own decisions if we want to. And as an American first, I honor that document that expresses our rights to make those religious and political choices.
First, since morality is determined by Divine Decree and by nothing else (it certainly doesn't come from science!), you'll have nothing to protest. Second, atheists are as bad as anyone else at wanting everyone else to think like them. Perhaps you failed to read the quotations of the prominent atheists in the article at the top of this thread? Why is it any worse for an evangelical to want you to believe as he does than it is for Dawkins or Hitchens to want evangelicals to believe as they do? Perhaps you haven't noticed this, but you atheists are veritable fonts of hypocrisy on this issue. You think it unreasonable and tyrannical for religionists to say that "error has no rights," yet the entire exclusion of G-d from the science classroom is based on this: creation (or ID) is an error, and error has no rights. Perhaps this is another one of those "self-evident truths" your allegedly hyper-critical, independent minds have latched onto?
I guess the reason it bothers me is the apparent ease that they seem to have with 3-4 billion people being eternally condemned according to their theology. It seems irrational, and I don't like to see my friends become irrational people.
I am bothered by the apparent ease with which your mind holds so many contradictions: an insignificant, meaningless universe in which an objective moral code external to the mind of man somehow exists (and in which it is so important that we "know the truth" about everything); a belief in "self-evident truths" while celebrating "critical thinking;" religious suppression of other opinions is tyranny and oppression while science's suppression of other opinions cannot be because it is "the truth," etc., etc., etc.
So you were saying?
Unfortunately Hitchens, Dawkins, et al, do not share your "generosity."
I leave out the letters to avoid spelling out the names of false "gxds." If you have ever read your Bible, you know that HaShem is a Jealous G-d. J*sus was a hippie wimp.
1) You haven't checked out His unequivocal denunciations of the ruling Pharisees, apparently.
2) And would you please give me those ground rules for ridicule again? Do you exercise voluntary self-expulsion whenever you practice a double standard?
I think Dawkins is mentally ill, myself.
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