Did Saddam’s WMD Go to Syria? Part III

Flopping Aces ^ | 06-20-07 | Scott Malensek

[Candor7]

Here is a quote from the Newsweek Article I refered to in my previous post ( this thread #19): From: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmnew/is_200304/ai_kepm308175

Quote:

Lt. Greg Holmes, a tactical intelligence officer with the Third Infantry Division, told NEWSWEEK that U.S. forces discovered 51 Roland-2 missiles, made by a partnership of French and German arms manufacturers, in two military compounds at Baghdad International Airport. One of the missiles he examined was labeled 05-11 KND 2002, which he took to mean that the missile was manufactured last year. The charred remains of a more modern Roland-3 launcher was found just down the road from the arms cache.

Unquote.

***************************************

Take it to the bank.

France and Germany were in so deep with the oil for food scandal and the trafficking of weapons contrary to UN sanctions, including WMDs, that it will take several generations for both countries to live it down. The people of France and Germany know. I believe thats one of many reasons both Germany and France have swung politically right.

[M. Espinola]

"The Russians said that the convoy was on a diplomatic mission following a convoy that carried Primakov himself."

A missed target opportunity

[george76]

So I guess he lied :

“Saddam Hussein’s regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein has sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He has already used them against his neighbors and his own people, and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal.” — John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

“The debate over Iraq is not about politics. It is about national security. It should be clear that our national security requires Congress to send a clear message to Iraq and the world: America is united in its determination to eliminate forever the threat of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction.” — John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

[Atlantic Friend]

“That photo may not be a Roland, but Newsweek published photos of the Rolands located AT Baghdad International Airport, as it was being occupoied by US Marines. Of course, why Newsweek must have made a mistake...Oooops! And of course, France said they were black market, but Ooops Again, they were proven to be latest generation Rolands....Ooops! You have a very large OOOOOOPS! factor going there!”

Links, Candor ? Claims that France said this and France did that and it was “proven” should be backed by links. That usually helps making a point more than capitalizing “ooops”. Just as it helps to put the right picture to illustrate said point.

To say the least, I have trouble seeing how there could be latest generation Rolands when production of the Roland missile stopped in the late 1980s... So either you prove me wrong and I’ll gladly eat crow, or I call BS on the whole story.

“France was playing hard with Russia and Germany to diminish US influence in the ME. They lost that gamble, tucked their tails between their legs and headed for Syria with the very WMDs that required them to leave conventional weapons behind, such as the Roland.”

Innuendo. What is there to back this story up ? I mean, if there is something substantial, why hasn’t the WH organized huge press conferences with damning evidence ?

Again, what would be the point for ANY government in striking deals with a regime everybody knows will go down in flames in a matter of weeks ? To gain influence in the ME ? Since you think the US has gained a lot of influence in the ME since OIF, wouldn’t have it been simpler for France Germany and Russia to just side with the US and get their share of the spoils of war ?

“Then all three nations launched a propaganda war decrying US involvement in Iraq, siding with Islamofascism.”

All three nations opposed the US in the UN, that much is true. Call it propaganda if you like. As for siding with “Islamofascism”, I call BS on that one too, Candor. French and German forces are in Afghanistan, French and German intelligence services shares intel with their US counterparts, French and Gerùan judges prosecuted Islamic terrorists.

“Now the same players are basically hyping their wares in Iran, only the nuclear stakes make the game much higher, and China is in aid.”

Funny, last time I checked France and Germany both expressed a lot of concern about Iran’s nuclear program, called it a military program, and sided with the US in the United Nations. The ones opposing sanctions are China and Russia (which provided both the technology and the fuel). Remember Russia ? The one Dr Rice said had to be forgiven, led by the guy whose soul Pdt Bush said he had a good long glimpse at ?

[Atlantic Friend]

"One of the missiles he examined was labeled 05-11 KND 2002, which he took to mean that the missile was manufactured last year. The charred remains of a more modern Roland-3 launcher was found just down the road from the arms cache."

Which he took to mean it was manufactured last year. He made an honest mistake here, as the date meant the "best before" date. Once again, the last batch of French-produced Roland missiles came off the factory in the early 1990s (now that I've checked). Production of these Roland-3 missiles started in 1988, two years BEFORE Iraq was placed under a weapon embargo. After the embargo the Euromissile/EADS production lines had switched to other missiles. And once again, the Polish army acknowledged there had been a mistake. The whole Rolandgate story was debunked on this very forum.

[Milligan]

Is that why the Syrians packed up their military out of Lebanon in September 2004?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3675198.stm

[Milligan]

During the Cold War, the Soviet never gave up their chemical or biological weapon development ambitions.

It’s called the Cold War. Your ship was in operation from 1962 - 1972.

“The Biological Weapons Convention (BWC) was drafted in 1972 and entered into force 3 years later, in 1975”

http://www.cdi.org/issues/cbw/bwc.html

Chemical Weapons Convention was signed in Jan 1993 and in forced by April 1997.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_Weapons_Convention

Remember many people who went into bootcamp were still being drilled about NBC attacks during the Cold War because we thought the Soviet’s didn’t give up their NBC.

I’m glad all the Nations signed those BCW Convention because they’re so evil.

This is what the Soviets did during the Cold War.
And we worry about the Koyoto Treaty today and the United States is the worst pollutors!

We clean up our mess.
We have a well informed public.
We are more aware about pollution and chemical hazards.

Our Ecology Movement started in the 1960’s while the Soviets started during Gorbachev’s Glasnost in the 1980’s.

The Soviet Regime was a closed society and they had several ecological disasters unknown to their populace more than that SHAD ship your talking about.

http://www.worldandi.com/specialreport/1997/May/Sa16204.htm

Soviet Union Anatomy of a Catastrophe
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,962199,00.html

LETHAL LEGACY : POLLUTION IN THE FORMER USSR
http://www.gerdludwig.com/html/stories_soviet_synopsis.html

Soviets became eco friendly during Gorbachev Era. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,969282,00.html

Nuclear dumping at sea including submarines.
Secret Cities (Military Industrial Sites) and Chemical Disposal. Dumping into Aral Sea.

http://www.okno.com/ewltr/archive/vol4/ecodisas.pdf

1957

Ural Mountains Nuclear Waste and Explosion

http://www.american.edu/projects/mandala/TED/URAL.HTM

1979 Sverdlovsk’s Outbreak. Military Industrial Complex accidently release Anthrax.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/plague/sverdlovsk/

The Pavlodar CW Plant in Kazakhstan. Chemical Waste Land.
http://www.cns.miis.edu/pubs/npr/vol07/72/72bozh.pdf

MERCURY POLLUTION AT PAVLODAR CHEMICAL PLANT
http://bisnis.doc.gov/bisnis/isa/011105KazChem.htm

http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0001457.html

Ural Sea Drying up....Ecological Disaster.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/678898.stm

Update http://discovermagazine.com/2006/sep/returnaralsea/

The Drying Ural Sea includes Vozrozhdeniye Island. It was the Soviet’s Anthrax Test site.

US Agrees to Clean Up Anthrax

October 23, 2001 | Judith Miller

he United States has signed an agreement with Uzbekistan to remove deadly anthrax from a remote island in the Aral Sea where the Soviet Union dumped tons of lethal spores, Bush administration and Uzbek officials said yesterday.”

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/554821/posts

Don’t forget the Soviet Subs exposing their personal to large doses to Nulcear Radiation.

If your trying to imply the United States gave Saddam chemical weapons I think your mistaken because there is a world market out there to buy chemical and biological technologies. United States does not have a monopoly on chemical and biological technologies.

As I remember right the United Nations didn’t put sanctions against Saddam Hussein in 1988. The only thing they wanted from the world community is to limit the sale of chemcials and biological agents.

S/RES/0620 (1988)
26 August 1988
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/un/res0620.htm

Most countries use chemicals and biological agents in a peaceful ways like to protect their crops and lifestock. Most countries don’t commit mass murder by weaponizing dangerous chemicals.

Many of those Iraqi scientist went to the United States, Europe and to the Soviet Union to get higher education. Are we going to arrest all the professors for being Genocide enablers?

[Milligan]

Please except my apolgy. Don’t take me for disrespecting your service in the United States Navy. Those threats were very real and people got hurt handling those terrible weapons.

We know more about Chemical Hazards now.

My Dad worked in a paper mill back during the 1960’s and he developed emphysema.

His doctor told him to give up smoking but never told him to give up his occupation.

All those solvents used to break down all those rags also affected his lungs. All his co workers were developing lung dieases associated with handling those chemicals.

No one thought to wear protective gear during that time. It wasn’t required until OSHA was created in 1970 by that time my Dad was disabled.

[JB in Whitefish]

“Please except my apolgy. Don’t take me for disrespecting your service in the United States Navy. Those threats were very real and people got hurt handling those terrible weapons.

We know more about Chemical Hazards now.”

You OBVIOUSLY think I’m some sort of uneducated nincompoop.

My “service” in the U.S. Navy amounted to my being a HUMAN TEST RAT. I’m not going to tear your post apart in each of its inaccuracies, but you DID afford me some juicy retorts.

1. “That SHAD Ship” was one of the most insidiously dangerous spots on the face of the earth. Men were REPEATEDLY told, “It’s just harmless simulants”...which is an outright LIE.

The FACT is they didn’t CARE what happened to us. They [the DOD/VA] STILL don’t.

It’s only through the efforts of perhaps 6 to 10 of the most outspoken participants that the bulk of this causality has been revealed. You’re talking to one of them.

Of 10,000 men, a goodly THIRD of them are dead....and, even though a number of us asked Dr. Page of the IOM DIRECTLY at one of our reunions in Seattle a few years back to look into the deaths of those men....the government ignored our reasonable request to know what potential dangers we face....DEADLY dangers....!!! The IOM “study” [read whitewash] has just recently been completed [two years LATE] and it is “inconclusive”. In other words, yet ANOTHER $3 Million in taxpayers wages was pissed down the drain in the ongoing coverup.

Let’s cut to the chase.

Even though SOME of the things you say are true, you are incredibly naive if you “think” the U.S. Government is in the business of cleaning up its own messes...!!!

Only under IMMENSE public and congressional pressure do these matters even get discussed.

~~~~~~~

One final note:

You mention the Nuke Vets in your largely incorrect response.

Here’s the TRUTH...

We, on the USS Granville S. Hall, were operating with live bio-chemical agents on a ship that had been used for TEN YEARS previously in above ground nuclear tests in the Marshall Islands....!!!

Did anyone ever bother to MENTION that...???

Or that the ocean going Tugs that operated with us at sea to collect data were stationed at a site [Johnston Atoll] that was the site of at least two FAILED Thor Rocket tests which rained down significant amounts of Plutonium and Americium debris that was NOT “cleaned up” for at least 20 years AFTER our operations there.

Prior to my serving on the Hall, YAG-40, our shipmates were regularly dispatched to contaminated uninhabited islands in the Marshalls replete with nuclear contamination.

Hmmm.....

Perhaps it’s YOU who is uninformed and gullible....???

I was only there.

No, we’re talking about real, genuine WAR CRIMES.

Yep.

Scary, huh...???

~~~~~~~~~

Here’s a little tidbit about one of my recently departed shipmates:

http://projectshad.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1105

Project 112/SHAD REPORT
Larry Pilkinton, 1938-2007

BY JACK ALDERSON, CHAIR

Larry Pilkinton served with the Project SHAD Technical Staff. I first met him when the light tugs were reorganized, and I and other new crew members reported in October 1964. The following is an excerpt from his obituary: “In 1964 he was selected for Project 112/SHAD, which was a top-secret project of chemical and biological warfare tests. He had various duties for SHAD, and in addition to his laboratory research work, he was assistant safety officer and exposed to many agents. He was injured in the line of duty but could not receive a medical discharge due to the top-secret nature of his duties. So after serving almost 13 years, he received an honorable discharge from the Navy.”

Now for the rest of the story: Larry was not on board the light tugs (LTs) but was assigned as part of the laboratory and support staff. After returning from the test called Shady Grove, Larry was sent to Hawaii’s Big Island as part of a land test. He told me that he was loading bomblets with nerve and biological agents. The next thing he knew was when he woke up back in Oahu at Tripler Army Hospital.

When we heard that he had been injured, a couple of the crew went to see him. However, they were denied entry by a Marine stationed outside his room. The next time we were in port we were informed he had died and that his family had shipped back to the mainland. Everyone on the staff thought of him dead, including those who worked closely with him.

It came as a great shock then when I received an e-mail from him in March 2006. He had read one of these columns in The VVA Veteran. In talking with him and his wife, Doreen, he told me that he had been shipped to Oaknoll Naval Hospital and placed in the psychiatric ward. He was told that he had a prior mental illness and his security clearance was revoked. His medical records had no indication he was part of the SHAD staff. Rather than going back to being a regular hospital orderly, he preferred to leave the Navy and restart his life as a civilian.

The Project SHAD Technical Staff members were carefully selected and all had final secret security clearances and, periodically, interim top secret. This means that background investigations had been performed. Why had this not come up with evidence of his prior mental illnesses? Why were his medical records devoid of PSTS information?

Agent Orange Committee chair Buzz Sawyer noted, “Larry died on February 13. Many of us feel his demise was related to the latent effects of his exposure to chemical and biological weapons on the Big Island in 1966. Because of the classified nature of his work, he died without establishing service connection to his illness or survivor benefits for his widow. The VA would only consider his prior mental illness.”

Sawyer added, “It is truly a shame that agencies of our government hide behind the veil of “national security” to cover up and block requests for information that may aid veterans in their quest for their rights. They check out our backgrounds thoroughly. But they obfuscate and they lie, and it is the veteran who gave honest and upright service who is hurt.”

It just ain’t right.

http://www.vva.org/veteran/0407/shad.html

[Jack Alderson was the commander of the SHAD Tug Fleet circa 1962-65]

~~~~~~~~

Thanks for the copious info, much of which is DEBUNKED here:

http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14573

Oh, yeah...apology accepted.

I get this crap all the TIME.

[Milligan]

We can’t sue can we?

No one told us about the chemicals when my father worked in the paper mill either.

He smoked but he quit after a month employed by the company but this also voided any claim against the company. My father never got any compensation for his illness including his co-workers.

And since everyone smoked back then the company used that to get away with murder.

This is a common attitude towards workers back then.

My father got so ill that he tried to get into the VA hospital. He served in the Pacific during WWII and it was jumping through hops to get him in. He needed medical care because his Medicare did not start yet and couldn’t afford civilian health care.

The VA doctors didn’t know how to use his breathing machine and that was a terrible experience for him. VA building was falling apart, indifferent staff and incompetence.

Then we he got his Medicare. It was too late. He died two months later.

I’m not a insensitive person.

[JB in Whitefish]

“We can’t sue can we?

No one told us about the chemicals when my father worked in the paper mill either.

I’m not a insensitive person.”

No, you’re a non-SENSICAL person.

“We can’t sue can we?”

NOT true.

Look up W.R. Grace, Libby, Montana...it’s not too far from where I live. The vermiculite mine there had dangerous levels of asbestos in the ore, which was crushed and spread all OVER town. Zillions of dollars later, W.R. Grace IS being held accountable.....

They KNEW the stuff was dangerous and LIED to their employees.

Hmm....

~~~~~~~~~

Now, contrast THAT with U.S. Military personnel being ORDERED [NO ONE “volunteered” for Project 112 or SHAD] into dangerous, even DEADLY, circumstances and being told not only, “No worries, it’s only ‘harmless simulants’”, but also:

“This project never happened.” “If you talk about it, you MAY end up in Leavenworth Prison”.....EVER...!!!

I signed one of those secrecy documents....READ the story I provided above...my OWN discharge was under similar circumstances....essentially ‘PUNISHMENT’ for having gotten sick......shame on ME....!!!

~~~~~~~~

“No one told us about the chemicals when my father worked in the paper mill either.”

This isn’t frikkin’ hand soap we’re talking about here...the items we’re talking about in MY case were designed to KILL or INCAPACITATE.

Not only were we active LIED TO during ops, but the lies continue to this day...!!!

Oh, we not only CAN sue, but DID....

Shaw-Pittman brought a lawsuit on behalf of the SHAD & Nuke Veterans in Federal Court which unfortunately was largely denied, but we DID manage to name Robert McNamara [SecDef under JFK and LBJ] PERSONALLY as well as a number of other key players.

One, a Mr. J. Clifton Spendlove [Head of Deseret Test Center in Utah where the goods were tested and also distributed to Project 112/SHAD] DID admit in a sworn deposition that they in fact DID know they were endangering the troops and went forward anyway.

THAT is what I mean by criminal activity....

CRIMINALLY INSANE to be precise.

~~~~~~~~

“I’m not a insensitive person.”

Perhaps not, but you are HIGHLY deceived if you actually BELIEVE the statements you made in your original post.

Here’s the problem that YOU and most other uninitiated “outsiders” to the Project 112/SHAD Veterans’ plight have to deal with:

The United States of America is a WONDERFUL, country...one of the kindest and most generous in the world if not the TOP humanitarian nation of all time.

HOWEVER, when confronted with the TRUTH about ILLEGAL and UNCONSCIONABLE acts performed WILLINGLY at the highest reaches of government....you buckle.

WHY?

Because the TRUTH of Project SHAD is just too big, too gnarly, too scary, too deadly, and too “un American” for most to even fathom, let alone engage themselves in for the benefit of the Veterans involved.

~~~~~~~~

Your replies read to me THIS way:

“My dad died of chemical exposures, so suck it up”

Well, I can’t post my reply to THAT nonsense.

I don’t SUPPOSE it’s occurred to you that I am actively DYING from my SHAD exposures, 100% Service Connected Disabled, and have a minimum of 130+ pages of OFFICIAL TESTIMONY to my credit in the Senate’s “Disclosure” of SHAD/112 fact finding...???

No, I didn’t expect so.

You just go ahead....I hear the train...I’ve already been called a:

coward
liar
fool
sissy
traitor
psychotic
sponge

and that’s by OTHER VETERANS.

~~~~~~~~~

Now, if there is at least one OTHER person who is interested, I will proceed to counter your highly erroneous “google search” condensation of Bio-Chemical Warfare Human Experiments by the United States Government in the interest of “national security”...but,

FIRST I think you need to read THIS article.

The Bioweaponeers

THE BIOWEAPONEERS. In the last few years, Russian scientists have invented the ..... I talked about this with Ken Alibek that day in Bill Patrick’s kitchen, ...

cryptome.org/bioweap.htm

The “fleet” assembled which is mentioned toward the end of the article WAS the Project SHAD task force at sea....

[Milligan]

The miners have strong unions.
They can afford legal representation.

What about this site?

http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?RecordID=11900

Forget the first paragraph.
Read about certain weaponized chemicals harming your CNS.

[JB in Whitefish]

I’d go with sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling,

“Naaah, Naaaah, Naaaah.....!!!”

Repeatedly

You’ve become a royal pain in the a**.

[Milligan]

bye...bye

[Paul Ross]

Bump!

[M. Espinola]

In terms of Saddam attempting to build nuclear weapons, it’s probably very true, since the Iranians are well under way or have workable devices in stock now.