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1 posted on 06/19/2007 9:15:13 PM PDT by Dajjal
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To: Dajjal

Excuse me but this representation of Karen Armstrong’s work immediately makes me discount anything else the author has to say. Granted Armsrong is NOT a believer, but she is extremely well educated about the 3 faiths and shares her knowledge with great insight.

This guy is just sharpening his own warped axe.


2 posted on 06/19/2007 9:23:31 PM PDT by txzman (Jer 23:29)
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To: Pyro7480; Siobhan; Maeve; odds; XR7; Dark Skies; Fred Nerks; narses; NYer; Salvation; dennisw; ...

Spengler ping


3 posted on 06/19/2007 9:25:34 PM PDT by Dajjal
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To: Dajjal
Know the tree by its fruits.

I see Christians rushing to the aid of møøslimbs after the tsunami.

I see wounded møøslimbs escaping Gaza to go to Israeli hospitals.

I see møøslimbs wrapping their own children in explosives to kill, Jews, Christians and other møøslimbs.

I know the tree. I don’t need to read the leaves.

4 posted on 06/19/2007 9:26:12 PM PDT by null and void (Tired of living in the shadows? Move to Sunny Mexico!)
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To: Dajjal

Islam is a death cult. Just look around the world and you can see it. It is a mind numbing exercise in submission, ignorance, cruelty, and evil.


5 posted on 06/19/2007 9:27:00 PM PDT by vpintheak (Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked. Prov. 25:26)
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To: Dajjal

Hey Spengler, you would make a good democrat. See no evil, hear no evil, and denounce any action that is taken against those trying to kill us. Excuse me while I barf.


6 posted on 06/19/2007 9:37:11 PM PDT by taxesareforever (Never forget Matt Maupin)
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To: Dajjal
...and does not mention the numerous verses that insist on the continuity of Islam with the People of the Book: "Say to them: We believe what you believe; your God and our God is one."

But it is horseshit. Our God is NOT their god. And the "Say to them" part is direction; it is instruction to do taqiyaa to the infidel. What is so hard to undertand about this?

9 posted on 06/19/2007 9:50:52 PM PDT by Captainpaintball
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To: All
excerpts from essay:

As I wrote on Spencer's website, there are any number of factual problems in his approach, of which two stand out:
1) Mohammed may never have existed, and
2) If he existed, he may have had nothing to do with the Koran, which well might be an 8th- or 9th-century compilation.

....

One reason that the Koran contains so much contradictory material (such that the odious Karen Armstrong can quote it as readily as the estimable Mr Spencer) might well be that it is a later compilation derived from disparate sources. Ibn Warraq, the scholar of Islam who wisely employs a pen name, has assembled the scholarly evidence to this effect in a single convenient volume [What is the Koran?].

....

A religion is not a text but a life.... Rosenzweig [in The Star of Redemption] explains that [for Jews] the sanctification of daily life attempts to bring the Kingdom of Heaven into ordinary existence. Christians, by contrast, bring themselves to the portals of the Kingdom of Heaven through Communion, through the miracle of Christ's blood....
What is it that Muslims do to bridge the great gulf fixed between the eternal realm and ordinary human existence? ... My conclusion was that Muslims sacrifice themselves, in a benign way through pilgrimage to Mecca, but also in a malignant way through jihad.... It is that self-sacrifice in the form of violent death in warfare is the Muslim equivalent of a sacrament.

11 posted on 06/19/2007 10:12:15 PM PDT by Dajjal
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To: Dajjal
I had to read the Koran, in full, for a graduate course in Medieval History. Scariest book I have ever read. The venom is througout the book, not just quotes that they claim are "taken out of context". I read them in context.

As far as Karen Armstrong goes, I have issues with her assumptions and methodology, and I told her that at a conference once. Good professional historians, especially religious historians (of which I am one), have to be careful to not let their biases show. Armstrong's biases are so blatant they detract from any valid point she may have.

12 posted on 06/19/2007 10:16:05 PM PDT by reaganaut ( ex-mormon, now Christian. "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Dajjal
No significant movement within Judaism or Christianity, including their "fundamentalisms," considers the imprecations of violence against unbelivers seen in the ancient Biblical text to be normative for today.

The Orthodox Jews, through mishnah have reinterpreted the meanings of the ancient texts. Christian fundamentalists believe it was prescriptive for ancient times, but that that Christ's gospel supercedes those requirements.

I am sure you can find a small handful of kooks in the Idaho woods with a different view, but they would be the tiny exception that proves the rule. You would have to visit thousands of fundamentalist churches or orthodox synagogues in the nations of the world before you would find a preacher calling for the "smiting of the Amalakites"

Visiting the mosques of the world would yield a different result.

13 posted on 06/19/2007 10:29:51 PM PDT by cookcounty (No journalist ever won a prize for reporting the facts. --Telling big stories? Now that's a hit.)
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To: Dajjal
The traditions of any religion are multifarious. It is easy, therefore, to quote so selectively that the main thrust of the faith is distorted. But Spencer is not interested in balance. He picks out only those aspects of Islamic tradition that support his thesis. For example, he cites only passages from the Koran that are hostile to Jews and Christians and does not mention the numerous verses that insist on the continuity of Islam with the People of the Book: "Say to them: We believe what you believe; your God and our God is one."

This misconception occurs when one reads the koran as organized rather than as chronologically written. Unlike the bible the Koran is organized by the length of the Shuras with the longest coming first and the shortest last. If read in chronological order one would see that the people of the book comments occur at the beginning and change into hatred after the "prophet" was rejected by jews and christians in medina after his "flight". The early passages were an attempt to win over jews and christians. But after jews and christians saw what a pos moohamad was they turned against him. Thus the later hateful passages.

15 posted on 06/19/2007 10:58:03 PM PDT by Cacique (quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat ( Islamia Delenda Est ))
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To: Dajjal
Whatever else I may say about the author of this article, Spengler, his essays are erudite, thorough and thought- provoking.
It's tough reading, but well worth reading his other muslim-related columns.
16 posted on 06/19/2007 11:49:33 PM PDT by Publius6961 (MSM: Israelis are killed by rockets; Lebanese are killed by Israelis.)
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To: Dajjal; Valin

It sounds to me like Spengler is unnecessarily disgruntled. Perhaps he could do more good by attempting to collaborate with Spencer. Spengler complains that Pope Benedict threw fat on the fire, then “backed off.” I don’t consider what the Pope did to be a “backing off.” He said what he said, then ventured to Turkey even though there were assassination threats. What did Spengler want him to do? Carry a sword with him? As my good-natured adversary here at FR says in his tagline - “history takes time.”


21 posted on 06/20/2007 7:10:04 AM PDT by sageb1 (This is the Final Crusade. There are only 2 sides. Pick one.)
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To: Dajjal

By their fruits you shall know them.


23 posted on 06/20/2007 5:22:58 PM PDT by ViLaLuz (2 Chronicles 7:14)
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To: Dajjal
It really doesn't matter which quotations either Armstrong or Spencer chose. The only thing that matters is the propensity of far too many many Muslims to use quotations from the Koran to justify murder.
24 posted on 06/20/2007 5:29:17 PM PDT by quadrant
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