Posted on 06/06/2007 11:32:55 PM PDT by Sleeping Beauty
WASHINGTON | A manufacturer of body armor is under criminal investigation for possibly making false claims, Pentagon officials said Wednesday.
Lawmakers are pressing for an independent test to determine whether the company’s vests are better than the ones U.S. troops in Iraq are wearing.
Air Force investigators said they had been investigating Pinnacle Armor of Fresno, Calif., for a year, looking into allegations the company lied about having its vests certified as safe. Pinnacle made the claim nine months before it received the federal certification, officials said.
Lawmakers from both parties accused Pinnacle’s president, Murray Neal, of hyping his product, exploiting the fears of soldiers’ families, misleading Congress and impugning the Army’s integrity.
Neal said his company’s Dragon Skin body armor was superior to the Interceptor brand the Pentagon was buying now. The Army and Marine Corps need 178,000 body armor systems for service members in Iraq and Afghanistan. Some soldiers and Marines have been paying upward of $5,000 to equip themselves with Dragon Skin.
Unlike the solid Interceptor vests, Dragon Skin uses overlapping silver dollar-sized discs. The flexible system is popular with police SWAT teams, Secret Service agents, and others.
Neal contended there was “a pattern of anti-Dragon Skin misinformation coming from the armed forces.” He said a side-by-side test of the two systems, conducted by an independent evaluator, should decide which was more effective.
“I think we can do that in short order,” agreed Rep. Duncan Hunter of California, the senior Republican member of the House Armed Services Committee.
Two members of the Senate Armed Services Committee want the Government Accountability Office to oversee body armor tests.
The Pentagon has tested equipment against certain standards, but not side by side.
BUMP
“They went around the Pentagram and showed their stuff on TV....that pissed a lot of generals off!!!”
- For a supposedly smart business man, Murray has made the fatal error of pissing off his biggest potential customer. By the time the Pentagon gets through with him, he may as well be selling Dragon Skin jock straps.
Thanks for the inspirational kick. I'll be reading them later today so I'll get back with you.
send me one of each..... i’ll take it out to the gun club i belong to outside Camp Lejeune and let the young marines blast away at them!!!! there would be plenty Kalashnikov variants for a truly independent test.....
I thought the Pinnacle Armor video was kind of corny myself ... I was not impressed as for the extra 22 lbs. give or take a bit. give me the extra gear. 22 lbs boils down to extra water and a whole lot of ammo that i can’t even figure
There was a difference, the Dragon Skin panels were about a pound per side heavier, but nothing like the 19.5 pound difference shown by the Army. A fair weight comparison would be of vests of the same size, designed to defeat the same threats, allowing the manufacturer to trade off the weight of the outer tactical vest with weight in the ceramic armor to achieve the best overall protection for the US military.
Now, I haven't read the rest of the testimony yet so there may be other relevant testimony regarding the weight issue. Feel free to do so from the link I gave at #63 and let me know what you find.
For Mr. Murray Neal's views on the weight view the .pdf to verify my text below since you can't copy text from the .pdf there...
I must also take strong issue with General Brown's egregious assertions that Dragon Skin weighs 20 pounds more than Interceptor does. The Army ORDERED an XL vest to see how many discs we could put into it. It was a full torso wrap with added side and upper disc coverage, one that we do not manufacture due to the weight and possible restriction of full arm motion but we did it per the specific request of Brigadier General Moran. Then the Army holds it up against a smaller Interceptor, with substantially less rifle defeating coverage? COME ON!
That's all I could find on weight, which isn't much more than was already known.
I did find it interesting that 2 pages are missing from that .pdf.
And points to ponder...is the Army still buying Dragon Skin behind the scenes through non-normal channels for its top brass?
I’ve been told by troopers that Dragon Skin doesn’t handle environmental extremes well and is both hotter and heavier that current issue armor.
I’ve never heard anything from a user about it’s ability to protect the wearer.
Michael Frazier
Since the makers of Dragon Skin are about to be in deep doodoo, I’d say enough of those comments were documented to warrant more research and less willingness to buy into slick marketing.
More weight and more heat means less ammo and a greater need for water. Armor that is heavy and delaminates in hot conditions is not the best in places like Iraq.
Have you been an infantryman, philman_36? If so, you know how important 20 or so lbs above and beyond the 80 to 100 lbs of gear you already carry can be. You probably also already know how embarrassing it is to run out of ammo before you run out of targets. There are plenty of serving FReepers. We should hear from them.
Michael Frazier
in my honest opinion .... all I have heard is that Dragon Skin is heavier then the ESAPI plates. And when you spend all day humping every little bit counts. and when we used to trade off whether it was caring extra water or MRE’s we always carried the extra water. The troops already hate the extra weight of the ESAPI. Then I look at the concept Dragon skin and all these ceramic disk glued to a fabric. Sounds like to me if you have a broken disk you need to replace the whole system vice just a plate with the ESAPI. Myself I spent plenty of time crawling around in the engine compartments of combat vehicles soak in oil and diesel fuel, so i would concerned about the adhesive factor especially if i just happened to get hosed by a hydraulic at 200 degrees, i can only what that does to adhesives.
If they want independent testing send me both of them and i know that the Marines that come to the range on the weekend would be more then happy to shoot a few of them.
Hey we did it when we went from the Vietnam era flak jacket to the Kevlar vest go out and crank a few rounds into it to see if it worked......
anyway another good read http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14523
just my humble opinion
"I’d say enough of those comments were documented..." goes nowhere in helping anyone view them.
Where are they documented?
More weight and more heat means less ammo and a greater need for water.
As far as the weight issue goes it appears that conflicting statements still leaves the issue in contention as to which weighs more.
The rest of your comment is common sense. Just spend a few years working outdoors in the SE Texas heat and humidity! Those paper boy days on a bicycle taught me a lot!
Armor that is heavy and delaminates in hot conditions is not the best in places like Iraq.
Weight is covered and again conflicting testimony brings nobody any further in reaching a successful determination.
Have you been an infantryman, philman_36?
Hell no! I learned during my early years of "Vietnam at the dinner table" and talking with family and friends that a ground pounder wasn't something that I wanted to be.
Later, I learned that the Constitution calls for maintaining a Navy and calling up an army. I chose the Navy for my tour of duty. (it was, fortunately for me, in peace time though Grenada happened during that time) I did spend time on a Gator hauling Marines and our conversations were rather interesting, to say the least. I learned quite a lot from them.
There are plenty of serving FReepers. We should hear from them.
I would love to hear from them. Only time will tell if they do or don't respond. However, would any of them have any testimonial about Dragon Skin's effectiveness or anything else? Soldiers weren't allowed to wear it long enough for that many people to have had the opportunity to wear it.
Hillary did a show and tell on body armor....Forgot which one she “promoted” but will go back and see if I can find it.
Bush just earmarked 30 Billion dollars (additional) for Africa AIDS funding.
That 30 Billion + 15 Billion (already wasted) would have gone a long way in having state of art armor for all of our military heroes.
Bush blows it again.
(I voted for GWB twice)
“Just spend a few years working outdoors in the SE Texas heat and humidity! Those paper boy days on a bicycle taught me a lot!”
I’ll bet they did. My days picking cotton, grapes and plums in the lower San Joaquin Valley taught me a lot, too, but nothing like the lessons taught in the dry season on the Plain of Reeds.
You admit to not being a "ground pounder", yet you seem to be willing to believe in equipment that is dangerous to soldiers if it fails to function as advertised.
“Where are they documented?”
Ok, Ok. I should know better than to use anecdotal evidence. If it’s important enough to you, you can search away. There’s plenty of discussion out there. If not, we’ll just have to see how things shake out in court.
Michael Frazier
If not, we’ll just have to see how things shake out in court.
Please elaborate.
P.S. You don't have to say "Good morning" in every reply. It's redundant and unnecessary.
Well we would soon know who is lying if they test side by side. I think the military will be found guilty if they don’t do the test!!
Good morning.
“I’m trying to stay above board and give equal footing to both sides.”
Bull scat.
Michael Frazier
P.S. You don't have to say "Good morning" in every reply. It's redundant and unnecessary.
I don’t need to read your mind, FRiend. I was commenting on your words.
My greeting at the beginning of each post is an affectation. It shows that I’m essentially a courteous person and it has the added benefit of irritating thin skinned people. About the only time I skip it is when I’m really ticked off and I try not to get angry a much as I used to.
If it bothers you, go elsewhere when you see my name.
Michael Frazier
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