Greek Archaeologists Discover Rare Example Of 2,700-Year-Old Weaving

IHT ^ | 5-9-2007 | AP

[gcruse]

“a copper urn’

Q: What’s a copper urn?
A: About forty thousand right out of the academy.

[PuTiDaMo]

---

BTW, the oldest paper ever found was found with this area and it has Tocharian A written on it.

---

I'd be interested in seeing the source for that. It would seem to be a chronological impossibility, as the earliest Tocharian A documents date from the 6th century CE, which is centuries after even Cai Lun paper.(SRC)

On the other hand, we do know of paper found in a Han Chinese imperial garrison dating from 8 BCE, and it is inscribed with Chinese script.(SRC)

Also, even earlier examples of paper found in Han Chinese tombs in Shaanxi date from around 140 BCE - 87 BCE.(SRC)

[blam]

"I'd be interested in seeing the source for that."

It's contained in the book,The Tarim Mummies, linked in post #10.

[PuTiDaMo]

---

It's contained in the book,The Tarim Mummies, linked in post #10.

---

Mhmm, did it also mention the dating and location of the site of this Tocharian A paper discovery? And what was the chapter and/or page number where all this was mentioned in the book ... perhaps I can have some of my contacts in the Chinese history field look it up. I am now very interested in verifying this; if true, it would make the Tocharian A script at least 600 years older than it is presently believed to be. Exciting, that would be.

[blam]

"Mhmm, did it also mention the dating and location of the site of this Tocharian A paper discovery? And what was the chapter and/or page number where all this was mentioned in the book"

In the book, The Tarim Mummies, about two thirds the way down page 321: "The oldest archaeological find of paper employed as a writing medium for writing dates to about AD 110 and our major source of early paper documents is, not suprisingly, the desiccating sands of the Tarim Basin."

Earlier on this same page it says that the Chinese were the earliest users of paper and that it was used for "clothes, hats, belts, armour, packing material, paper handkerchiefs, toilet paper, wallpaper, kites, currency(9th century), cards, umbrellas and etc. - and the Chinese were invariably the earliest to utilize them."

Later this evening I will look in my book, The Mummies Of Urumchi, for the source of the exact quote.

[PuTiDaMo]

---

"The oldest archaeological find of paper employed as a writing medium for writing dates to about AD 110 and our major source of early paper documents is, not suprisingly, the desiccating sands of the Tarim Basin."

---

Ah, I see. Thanks. But it does not mention that a Tocharian script was written on the paper, let alone Tocharian A. If Tocharian A was really written on this paper, even a 110 CE paper, many in Indo-European linguistic studies would be a-flurry with excitement at finding examples of Tocharian script that predate known Tocharian writing by almost half a millennium. By 110 CE, though, the Han Dynasty had a well-established presence in the Tarim Basin, so it is quite likely that this paper was inscribed with ancient Hanzi.

Besides, Mallory and Mair technically claim this as the earliest discovery of paper used as a writing medium, not of paper per se - which according to the third source I quoted earlier is much older than 110 CE. Nor do they mention that it was found with any of the mummies. When you wrote that "the oldest paper ever found was found with this area", I thought you were talking about the oldest paper of any use, not just writing paper.

Actually, even the claim that the first paper writing dates to 110 CE no longer holds, because the second source I quoted earlier mentions a discovery of paper dating to 8 BCE in an ancient Han garrison, with specifically Chinese character script written on it.

This would mean that, regardless of what script was written on the 110 CE paper, the oldest discovery of paper used as a writing medium dates to 8 BCE, and the oldest paper writing was in Han Chinese characters.

[tet68]

The cylindrical urn also contained dried pomegranates — offerings linked with the ancient gods of the underworld

All hail Demeter, whose rich hair falls in golden plaits as only a goddeses does.

Drink the Kykeon, become Epoptes!

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks Blam.

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[Knitting A Conundrum]

Amazing for people to publish stories about artefacts with no pics....

[itsamelman]

[SunkenCiv]

[rimshot!]

[SunkenCiv]

The History of Etruria: Burning of the Books
The Mysterious Etruscans

One noted discovery of the 20th Century was the Liber Linteus, or Linen book, which was thought to be the fragments of an Etruscan book made of linen and re-used to preserve an Egyptian Mummy. The Liber Linteus can be seen in Zagreb museum. If linen was used as a medium, then this would have had even less chance of survival than papyrus. Certainly there have been examples of models of Etruscan books found in the tombs of Cerveteri. These suggest that Linen was indeed traditionally used by the Etruscans for the written word.

The question of the scope of Etruscan literature remains unanswered, but it is quite clear from other sources that it must have been quite substantial. Censorinus refers to the Annals of Etruria, and during the late Roman Republic and Early Imperial years it was considered quite fashionable for Roman Patricians to send their boys to Etruscan schools to further their education. Some of this would no doubt have been a grounding in the disciplina etrusca, but it seems unlikely that that was all that they learned. We also know that enough of the history of Etruria survived in written form even up to late Imperial times for the emperor Claudius to write a twenty volume history of Etruria. (together with an 8 volume history of the Carthaginians, both in the Greek Language) If even a fragment of this history survived today it would answer a great many questions.

[blam]

"When you wrote that "the oldest paper ever found was found with this area", I thought you were talking about the oldest paper of any use, not just writing paper."

I had meant to imply that too. Apparently I was wrong, my apologies...I pride myself on being correct in such matters. Albeit, I still think I read that somewhere and if I run across it again I'll make note where and notify you. Until I can cite a reliable source, I'll stop saying it.

[my_pointy_head_is_sharp]

Would have liked a picture.

[SunkenCiv]

Prehistoric Women: Not So Simple, Not So Strange
New Scientist | 3-28-2007 | Germaine Greer
Posted on 03/31/2007 2:03:47 PM EDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1809862/posts

[SunkenCiv]

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