Posted on 05/04/2007 5:46:36 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy
Quoting a friend: "The dems will gladly trade a Harry Reid for Orin Hatch and the White House and a filibuster-proof Senate."
Any attempt to throw mormonism at Mitt will play very well with their base. Their base won't see any difference between one man of faith, George Bush, and another, Mitt Romney.
Seven there were many admonitions on the other thread about personal attacks. Just a gentle reminder ;-)
Saundra, just curious here. Are women allowed to offer the prayers over the sacrament in the LDS church yet? They weren't when I was a member, nor were they allowed to offer the opening or closing prayer in Sacrament meeting.
Again, you get hung up w/the Father HAVING to have a physical body. That is post Book of Mormon theology.
The body is not makes for divinity. A divine "substance" is not a body. In the OT, God would present Himself at times as a cloud. So now you're going to tell me you can't have divinity unless you have vapor & dust?
The book of Psalms talks about the "wings" of God. So now you're going to tell me you can't have the substance of divinity unless the divine bird is flapping?
Just because God has manifested Himself in various forms/expressions, doesn't reduce Him to the manifestation.
Just like just because the Son of God is also the son of Mary, you can't reduce him only to being the son of Mary. Jesus is the forever God-man. You're right in that He didn't shed the body post-death or post ascension. But just as He was suddenly with the disciples at one post-death appearance, implying He walked thru walls; as just as He flew through the air ascension-wise and will return the same way, He is not limited by time or space.
Col. 1:27 talks about "Christ IN you, the hope of glory." Is Christ in you, or not? Is the Christ who created you (Col. 1:16) and every being the same Christ who is in you?
Well, what does Paul say about ill motives for preaching the gospel? "It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes and I will continue to rejoice." (Phil. 1:15-18)
There's your answer.
No its not. I was Christian for 30 years and attended various denomonations. While one pulpit may not do it every Sunday I heard it every couple of months or so. So when you put together all the thousands of churches in America "Sunday after Sunday" is accurate.
Bump for later...
Its hard to believe you would attempt to dispute the
persecution of Mormons. Just look at the looneys here on FR
who go ballistic every time the word “Mormon” is uttered.
How did I dispute persecution?
Has any Mormon in public office?
Ahemmmm....Arizonans remember Evan Meacham, impeached governor, 1988
No other political figure has had as much impact on Arizona’s reputation in the past 20 years as Meacham. A perennial candidate and anti-establishment conservative, Evan Meacham lasted 15 months as governor before he was impeached.
Don’t go lawyer on me.
Good grief. You make a charge and then can’t back it up.
I am not disputing that Mormons are and were mistreated.
In regards to a name making something Christian, is The Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) twice as Christian because Christ is in the name twice?
“Just look at the looneys here on FR
who go ballistic every time the word “Mormon” is uttered.”
Your so called “looneys who go ballistic” are in good part composed of former Mormons, or people like myself who have had extensive dealings with church members in high Mormon population areas. They may be looneys, or they may be canaries in the coal mine.
But if you think we are looneys, did you know Adam (of Adam and Eve fame) was also a God, and Eve was just one of his many wives?
[President Brigham Young’s Teaching
Here we have the name/titles of the three creation Gods. Except for Michael the identities of Eloheem and Jehovah are not spelled out. Brigham Young mentioned, “It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael . . .” (Journal of Discourses 1:51, 9 April 1852).
In this same discourse (as published) President Brigham Young said:
When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. . . . the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. . . . When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal” (Journal of Discourses 1:50, emphasis in original).
What we have are three creation Gods, Eloheim, Yahovah [spelled that way in the Endowment House records] and Michael. They are not the Father, Son and Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit) but a different trinity. They are like a LDS priesthood presidency of three (Elder’s Quorum, High Priest Quorum, First Presidency, Mission Presidency, Temple Presidency). But there are now two trinities, the regular Father, Son and Holy Ghost and the creation Gods Eloheim, Yahovah (Jehovah) and Michael. Brigham Young taught that in order to create a world a man would have received his exaltation as a God. At a Special Conference held on 28 August 1852 he explained it as an important key to understanding:
After men have got their exaltations and their crowns—have become Gods, even the sons of God—are made Kings of kings and Lord of lords, they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles. How can they do it? Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children. This is a key for you” (Journal of Discourses 6:275).
Some individual journals mention the teachings of Brigham Young about Adam/Michael but not all church members believed in Adam being God or understood what he was talking about. Apostle Orson Pratt opposed the doctrine from 1852-1868. It is evident that if the interpretation of the creation Gods was taught in the Nauvoo Temple like Brigham Young was explaining then Pratt probably would have accepted it. But it appears to have first been publicly taught in April 1852.]
Of course, I will be called again a bigot for quoting Mormon doctrine. Yet I suspect a lot of people will be surprised to find that monotheistic “Christian Mormon’s” aren’t quite sure which God actually created Earth.
Your #400...excellent and concise post.
You almost certainly hold personal beliefs that others would find equally bizarre and outrageous.
I’ve said before that Huntsman would be a better Mormon governor to run than would be Romney. I’ll vote for Mitt if he is the nominee, but I’m not planning on supporting him in the primaries. (I probably won’t vote for Rudy if he is the nominee.)
That's because Mormons don't judge according to whether one attends an acceptable "church." They judge political nominees according to whether that nominee's life is lived in accordance with Christian principles, whether his walk matches his talk.
They're pretty good at such judgments, too. That's why they were and are George W. Bush's strongest supporters. Even today, their support for Bush remains unflagging even as evangelicals ditch Bush left and right as they chase after sexy modern idols such as Gore's global warming nonsense.
Of course, this dumbfounds many evangelicals who can't understand why let alone how members of such a wicked, evil cult could or would ever support a nominee for the express reason that that nominee strives to live Christian principles.
As for "weird beliefs," how about: transubstantiation, the notion of a triune God, and a literal six day creation period less than 5000 years ago? Most Mormons find these beliefs odd, but they would never use them as a basis for rejecting an otherwise decent Catholic or evangelical candidate for president.
So tell me again: between evangelicals and Mormons generally, who judges superficially and hypocritically and who judges righteous judgment?
Last time I check the Utah Capital was not a THEOCRACY. In fact it IS the government of all those various demomination and not just the Mormons......ISN'T IT?
But a Christian organization is not a governmental body. They may exclude whomever they want, can't they?
AND I worked for a Salt Lake Company that held weekly sales meeting that opened with prayer. It was owned by LDS men, and only LDS members were asked to pray. They owned the company - and so it was their right. It is not a govenmental right, and so this is precisely a reason to fear Romney. We see clearly an attitude confusing State Governement with ecclisiastical groups. THAT should never happen IMO.
“You almost certainly hold personal beliefs that others would find equally bizarre and outrageous.”
No I don’t - unless you are referring to people in the psyche ward. I believe 2 + 2 = 4, no doubt that is bizarre and outrageous to nut jobs. I don’t believe I am a God (or in any danger of becoming one), though I can find thousands in the nut wards who do believe they are God. I don’t believe I can gaze into a rock crystal and create a new religion (though perhaps if I did, only then would you consider me sane [talkin’ bout spin!]).
But, let’s talk about my bigotry (of which I am often accused), versus the saintliness of our Mormon apologists:
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Joseph Fielding Smith wrote the following:
“There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantage. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less.... There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits.”
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, pages 66-67
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Joseph Smith stated the following:
“For instance, the descendants of Cain cannot cast off their skin of blackness, at once, and immediately, although every soul of them should repent, obey the Gospel, and do right from this day forward. . . . Cain and his posterity must wear the mark, which God put upon them; and his white friends may wash the race of Cain with fuller’s soap every day, they cannot wash away God’s mark; The Lamanites, through transgression, became a loathsome, ignorant and filthy people, and were cursed with a skin of darkness … yet, they have the promise, if they will believe, and work righteousness, that not many generations shall pass away before they shall become a white and delightsome people; but it will take some time to accomplish this at best”
Source: The Latter-Day Saints Millennial Star, vol. 14, p. 418
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Remember, these are the Prophets of Mormonism speaking, the supposedly had a direct connection with the Holy Spirit. I wonder how Bishop Mitt is going to explain that away with a “revelation” that only came in 1978.
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