Posted on 05/04/2007 5:46:36 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy
They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious bigotry, alive and well today
May 4, 2007 - by Saundra Duffy-Hawkins
“I wouldn’t vote for a Mormon for dogcatcher, much less President of the United States!” There’s a lot of that kind of hateful rhetoric going around since Mitt Romney decided to throw his hat in the ring – as if Mormons are some kind of hideous evil monsters. The loudest anti-Mormon shouts, sad to say, are coming from America’s so-called “Christian right”. How can Mitt Romney hope to get a fair shake in this spiritually polluted atmosphere?
There was another man running for President who faced the same dilemma – John F. Kennedy – only he was the target of anti-CATHOLIC bigotry. In his 1960 speech to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association, JFK said the following: “. . .I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end - where all men and all churches are treated as equal - where man has the same right to attend or not attend the church of his choice - where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind - and where Catholics, Protestants and Jews, at both the lay and pastoral level, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their words in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood.” John F. Kennedy Library & Museum (Speeches, 1960). By the way, if you listen to the audio version of JFK’s speech, you will hear the hurt and frustration in his voice and the unfair treatment surely must have caused many a sleepless night.
Fast forward to 2007 where JFK might as well have been “whistlin’ Dixie”. The hostility toward Mormons today, in my opinion, is even worse than that suffered by JFK. Although it is said that JFK lost about a million votes to religious intolerance, Romney stands to lose even more if the anti-Mormon evangelicals hang together.
According to Media Matters for America - “. . . a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media” - FOX News is not reporting accurately on the level of evangelical hostility to the Romney run. Media Matters for America points out that among evangelical leaders rejecting Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson (National Day of Prayer and Focus on the Family, respectively), the Southern Baptist Convention (collectively), Pat Robertson (Christian Broadcasting Network), and Dr. D. James Kennedy (Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Florida). “Among many conservative evangelicals – who comprise a significant part of the Republican base – Mormonism is considered an un-Christian cult.” Media Matters for America (2007)
While stumping in Florida, a man in the audience stood up during the Q&A portion and said the following to Romney: “You, sir, you’re a pretender. You do not know the Lord. You’re a Mormon.” Media Matters for America (2007). This is the kind of un-American, disrespectful treatment Mitt Romney will apparently have to endure throughout the entire campaign – as if just being a Mormon is reason enough to open the floodgates for free flow of pent-up hatred and vindictiveness.
For the record, the Mormon bashers know full well that the official name of Romney’s church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” and the members should rightfully be called “members of the LDS Church” but the words “Mormon” and “Mormonism” have an aura of negativity so they prefer to use the “M” word as if it were dirty.
Less than five minutes cruising around the official LDS website (LDS.org) will show anyone who’s interested that the Church is a Christian organization, with Jesus Christ at the Head. There are no paid clergy – all are volunteers. Humanitarian aid is legendary. Members of the LDS Church believe in strong family values; they are patriotic, they are law-abiding upstanding citizens of their community. Many LDS young men right out of high school go on two-year missions – you know, the guys on bikes – and during their mission they don’t date, read newspapers, go to movies or watch TV; but rather they dedicate two years of their lives to serving others. Many women go on missions as well, and couples, only theirs is 18 months in length but the obligations are basically the same. Most members do not shop or go out to eat on Sundays – reminiscent of the good old days when shops and stores were closed in obedience to the Commandment, “Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy”. If they can help it, LDS Church members do not work on Sundays, either, preferring to spend the day at church and with their families. Church members are encouraged to store up a year’s supply of food and water so they will be able to care for their families in the event of an emergency. The LDS Church believes in self-sufficiency and self-reliance but in the event of a financial hardship the Church distributes food and supplies through their welfare (Bishop’s Storehouse) program. Members of the LDS Church do not drink alcohol nor do they use illicit drugs; they do not drink coffee and tea. A Mormon in good standing, therefore, will not be found in a drunken stupor puking her guts out at 3 a.m. anywhere in the world. Furthermore, members of the church are encouraged to dress modestly, be polite and courteous. And members of the LDS Church are faithful tithe payers. Come on, people, what’s not to love?
So what on earth is their beef, the anti-Mormon zealots? Why is there such disdain for the LDS Church and its members? In Hugh Hewitt’s book, “Mormon in the White House?” he states his thesis that the fierce anti-Mormon sentiment among main-stream Christians stems from one or two or all three of the following factors (in order of importance):
1) “It is just too weird.
2) “A Mormon president will supercharge Mormons’ missionary work.
3) “If there is a Mormon in the White House, Salt Lake City will call the shots, at least on the biggest issues.” Hewitt (2007, p. 221-227)
Hugh Hewitt has written an exquisite book about the Romney campaign and overcoming the “Mormon problem.” It’s a good read and I highly recommend it. Of the three problem points listed in the previous paragraph, Hewitt believes – unless some unforeseen blunder destroys his chances – none of the three is insurmountable for Mitt Romney. (Plus, he has the best hair.)
Well, I’m no Hugh Hewitt, not even close; he’s an icon on the conservative radio talk show circuit. Hewitt could talk circles around me (I’ve seen him in action in Sacramento); he’s brilliant; he’s well educated, well read, no doubt a genius, plus he’s kind of cute. I’m basically a “nobody” – an overweight grandma – but after having researched for this paper, I have come to a totally different conclusion as to why there is such in-your-face angst over Romney’s religion of choice: It’s all about money, power and control (in that order). I think they’re (the evangelical religious bigots, that is) scared half to death and are revving up their attacks, not to save souls, but to save their reputations (which if tarnished would lead to financial ruin).
As I said, all one must do is browse around the LDS official web site to see what the LDS Church believes and stands for. Any reasonable person would conclude that Mormons are not evil monsters at all. In fact, they are God fearing, Christ believing, Holy Ghost following people going about doing good. “You will know them by their fruit” and the LDS has plenty of fruit and they are willing to share.
Earlier, I stated that some high-powered ministries have publicly condemned Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson, the Southern Baptist Convention, Pat Robertson, and Dr. D. James Kennedy – just to name a few. There are hoards of others. Sunday after Sunday, preachers, evangelists, reverends and ministers from all Christian denominations pound the pulpit with anti-Mormon rhetoric. I heard the message loud clear when I was a Baptist and when I tiptoed through evangelical/Pentecostal territories. Was I ever miffed when I later learned for myself the Gospel truth about the LDS Church.
Just think about it, please. If Dr. D. James Kennedy, for example, who wrote the book, The Wolves Among Us, were to admit he’d been wrong in labeling the LDS Church a “cult” that leads unwary ignorant people astray (to hell), what would become of his multi-million-dollar ministry? Suffice it to say, there’s big money to be had by sale of books, tapes, CD’s, videos, and other anti-Mormon propaganda, not to mention speaking engagements and world-wide religious crusades. We’re talking trillions, all told. I realize the anti-Mormon aspect of these ministries is but a small portion of the business, but if the truth came out, that they had been using falsehoods about the LDS Church as a cash cow, their entire empires could tumble.
The ABC News program 20/20 aired on March 23, 2007, exposed the lavish lifestyles of some of the top evangelical preachers – million dollar mansions and personal jets. ABC News - 20/20 (2007) (Again, the LDS Church has no paid clergy.)
It’s nothing new. Severe harassment and persecution has been the lot of the LDS Church since it’s inception in 1820 when a 14-year-old boy named Joseph Smith saw visions and communed with heavenly beings. Rather than discuss the spiritual aspects of the LDS Church, however, let’s stick to facts of history. Taken from a college-level early American history textbook, Joseph Smith, upon experiencing the visions and visitations, believed “that God had work for me to do, and that my name should be for good and evil among all nations, kindreds and tongues.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 292). The textbook continues, “They were met with hostility virtually everywhere they went . . . . As the movement gathered momentum, hundreds of people joined the church; entire congregations of churches of other faiths joined . . .” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 293)
During the dark time of American history when slavery was flourishing and when Native Americans were forced from their lands, the pioneers of the LDS Church also suffered at the hands of unscrupulous politicians, governmental leaders, and angry hate-filled mobs. “In the face of relentless persecution, Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, had led his flock to Illinois. There they had established the town of Nauvoo, which by the mid-1840’s had become the largest city in Illinois with over 15,000 people. . . In June 1844, a mob of non-Mormons broke into the jail where Smith was being held and killed both him and his brother. . .The Mormons abandoned Nauvoo in the spring of 1846 as anti-Mormons pounded the town with cannon, destroying the Great Temple. In a well-coordinated migration, 15,000 Mormons moved in stages to the Great Salt Lake.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 334-335) Many walked all the way and many died along the way, including innocent babes.
Joseph Smith at one time was tarred and feathered by a mob. No jury, no trial, no judge – and they had planned to castrate him, too. On October 27, 1838, the then governor of Missouri issued an “extermination order”: “The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the State if necessary . . .” Far West History (n.d.) Please note that the order called for exterminating “Mormons” making no distinction between men, women and children, and indeed women and children were subject to the extermination order.
In an event known in LDS history as “the Haun’s Mill Massacre”, precipitated by the extermination order, 30 to 40 LDS families were surprised by some 200 to 250 militia. After the smoke cleared, seventeen LDS people lay dead including a ten-year-old boy. Thirteen LDS members were wounded including a woman and a seven-year-old boy. “A few Missourians returned the next day and took plunder.” LDS FAQ (n.d.) No Missouri militiamen were killed but three were wounded. Just a few years earlier, the LDS folk who died that day had been members of other churches - Congregational or Methodist or Baptist or Presbyterian.
In l976, Governor Bond of Missouri officially rescinded the extermination order and presented apologies for the “unfortunate developments” it caused. Quoting from Governor Bond’s Executive Order: “WHEREAS, Governor Boggs’ order clearly contravened the rights to life, liberty, property and religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, as well as the Constitution of the State of Missouri; and . . . Expressing on behalf of all Missourians our deep regret for the injustice and undue suffering rescind Executive Order Number 44 dated October 27, 1838, issued by Governor W. Boggs. . .” Far West History (n.d.) The individuals who harassed, abused, and even murdered Mormons in cold blood were never tried for their crimes.
I read Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s Letter from Birmingham Jail and it really touched my heart. There he was, suffering for the Lord in jail, and these religious leaders with highfalutin titles on the outside wrote an open letter (“A Call for Unity”) in which they criticize King’s tactics and basically blame King for the racial turmoil of the time. Though you can tell King is upset and hurt by the attack – made worse because he’s stuck in jail and can’t confront the religious leaders face-to-face – his response is gentle genius. “I wish you had commended the Negro sit-inners and demonstrators of Birmingham for their sublime courage, their willingness to suffer, and their amazing discipline in the midst of great provocation. One day the South will recognize its real heroes.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 881)
King has a few choice words for the Church, too: “If today’s church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. Every day I meet young people whose disappointment with the church has turned into outright disgust.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 880)
King signs off with “Yours for the cause of Peace and Brotherhood”.
There’s an eerie commonality between what JFK and MLK endured at the hands of the religious bigots of their day and what Mitt Romney is facing today. I hope and pray that Romney will be able to fend off these undeserved attacks from the religious hypocrites with the same grace, dignity and God-inspired resolve displayed by the other two.
A few popular bumper stickers read: “Honk if you love Jesus” and “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven” or “Jesus is my co-pilot”. Yet, apparently, these same bumper-sticker Christians are the ones waging war against Mitt Romney’s run for the Presidency solely on the basis of his chosen faith in a Church that bears the name of the Savior of the world.
References
ABC News - 20/20 (2007). Philanthropic donations come from your heart, but where do they end up? Ex-money manager says "enough!" to secretive Christian Ministry spending. Glenn Ruppel & John Stossel. United States: ABC News.
Ayers, E. L., Gould, L. L., Oshinsky, D. M., & Soderlund, J. R. (2004). American Passages - a history of the United States - Volume I: to 1877 (2nd ed.). Belmont, California: Thomson/Wadsworth.
Barnet, S., & Bedau, H. (2005). Letter from Birmingham Jail. Current Issues and Enduring Questions - a guide to critical thinking and argument, with readings (7th ed., pp. 867-882). Boston and New York: Bedford/St. Martin's.
Far West History. (n.d.). The Extermination Order and how it was rescinded. Retrieved April 28, 2007, from http://www.jwha.info/mmff/exorder.htm
Hewitt, H. (2007). A Mormon in the White House? 10 things every American should know about Mitt Romney. Washington, D.C.: Regnery Publishing, Inc.
John F. Kennedy Presidential Library & Museum. (1960, September 12). Address of Senator John F. Kennedy to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://www.jfklibrary.org
Lds Faq. (n.d.). What was the Haun's Mill Massacre? Retrieved April 28-2007, 2004, from Brigham Young University Web Site: http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/view.asp?q=57
Media Matters for America. (2007). Fox News whitewashes evangelical hostility to Romney's faith. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200702280002
It is soooo sad. This need to use the same language as Christians when in fact you mean something entirely different.
Language is very clear CC it is the MC you have revised the definition of words!
I real lauguge Father and Son are 2 seperate beings!
and the Holy "Ghost" makes 3 seperate beings!
the MC have change Father & Son as the same enity!
You count like this 1+1+1=1
When in real math 1+1+1=3
Cheers!
Perhaps you would like to take a shot at answering the question posed in post #2900. Take your time, Resty, it isn’t a hard question. Who Raised Jesus From the Dead?
If you believe all those lies about Joseph Smith, you should hear the ones they said about our Jesus . . . and the same lies are still being told today.
They say Jesus is a charleton, a liar, cheater, a con man, a false prophet. They say Jesus is from his father the devil and a blasphemer. They say Jesus had sex with Mary Madgeline.
One of the Savior’s own disciples turned against him - and our Lord has suffered rejection by so many it is unimaginable. And you are surprised that Joseph Smith had enemies in the Church?
Just because you read stuff other people said about Joseph Smith, that doesn’t make it true.
It isn’t Christian. Your beliefs are not Christian. When you post your testimony in such a way it misleads people into thinking that you believe Jesus is Jehovah/Savior in the same way that they believe.
Saundra, you were Christian once, and I was Mormon. We both know that they are not the same belief. The nature of God is different, the meaning of salvation is different, the requirements to live with God are different. Words have different meanings. When I read your posts, it reminds me of the way in which I said those words - - I think honesty would dictate the definitions of terms be spelled out.
You do not believe Jesus is God. You do not believe the Father is God. You do not believe the Holy Spirit is God. You believe that three separate personages make up the Godhood. I’m simply pointing that out.
Who raised Jesus from the dead? Heavenly Father, who else? I like the part about how Jesus descended into Hell and grabbed the keys of death, hell and the grave. Yahoo! The keys . . . ring a bell?
Sorry that was a typo.
That is so funny when you tell me what you think I believe. And then you tell me I don’t really believe what I believe. I think that’s funny.
This just in, the official word from my Church:
Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God the Father in the flesh. He was the Creator, He is our Savior, and He will be our Judge. Under the direction of our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ created the earth. Through His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and by giving His life on the cross—that is, by performing the Atonement—Jesus Christ saves us from our sins as we follow Him. Through His Resurrection, Jesus Christ saves us from physical death. Because He overcame death, we will all be given the gift of resurrection.
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel" (Articles of Faith 1:3).
Through Christ's atonement and our own obedience to the laws and ordinances.
Would you mind telling our reading audience exactly what that entails precisely? What are the laws and ordinances? How do you know when you've been obedient?
John 5
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
31 >u>If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Saundra, was Jesus lying when He said that if they destroyed His body He would raise it up in three days? Who IS Jesus, Saundra?
I didn’t think you could answer that simple syllogism. But your dodging was in your usual obfuscatory style. At least Saundra tried to answer more directly.
What is your problem besides not liking the answer!
Jesus makes it very clear through out John that Jesus does the will of his Father in Heaven and all the glory is to go to His Father!
Jesus makes very clear in John 20-
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them,
I ascend unto MY Father, and YOUR Father; and to MY God, and YOUR God.
Peace be with you, Resty.
“If you believe all those lies about Joseph Smith, you should hear the ones they said about our Jesus . . . and the same lies are still being told today.”
I have never heard anyone say (much less have in writing) that Jesus was a fornicator. Even you cannot deny Joseph Smith slept with the wives of other men.
I have never heard Jesus called a money changer, nor have I ever seen his signature on a $3 bill, yet you deny what is out in the open.
I have never heard it said that Jesus tried to kill another human being, even his inquisitors. The testimony of the one survivor of Joseph’s killing says Joseph pulled the trigger six times on the 6 barrel pistol that had been smuggled into the jail, hitting three people.
I have never heard that Jesus got his testimony by looking through a seer stone pulled from a well. Yet you delight in your religion being the result of a parlor trickster’s rantings.
I’ve never heard Jesus called “General”, as though he was trying to set himself up for real as an alternate Caesar, but Joseph Smith’s friends called him General and he led a Mormon militia.
I never heard Jesus was under investigation for falsely imprisoning others, yet these cases were before the courts before Joseph Smith died.
I have never heard that Jesus wore magic garments to ward off evil. I have never heard that Jesus had magic handshakes and claimed he had to baptize the dead.
In short, Joseph Smith is a fraud in so many documented ways, that I can no longer assume Mormons practice their faith in ignorance of this history, but do so in open complicity with one overt false prophet. Such purposeful blindness can only lead to bad endings for a Romney presidency.
bookmark
"...Jehovah he is Elohim; there is none else beside him." -
Deuteronomy 4:35
"Know that Jehovah he is Elohim; it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture."
Psalm 100:3
Saundra, do you believe that Jehovah is the Most High?
Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have sworn to Jehovah God Most High, possessor of heaven and earth..."
Genesis 14:22"I will give thanks to Jehovah according to His righteousness And will sing praise to the name of Jehovah Most High."
Psalm 7:17
Saundra, do you ever pray directly TO Jesus?
And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" And having said this, he fell asleep."
Acts 7:54-60"...pray to Jehovah..."
Jeremiah 29:7"Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And I will be found by you, declares Jehovah..."
Jeremiah 29:11"What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way Jehovah our God is near us whenever we pray to Him?"
Deutronomy 4:7
Saundra, are you ashamed to come to Jesus and pray to Him?
Cordially,
You count only like this 1+1+1=3 when that is only half of the divine formula. (The other portion is 1x1x1=1)
What? Do you think that God as the Author & Source of Math is only a God of Addition? He is not also the Alpha and Omega of Multiplication?
Yes, our God is a 3-Personage God (1+1+1=3). But he's also a 3-in-1 Personage God (1x1x1=1)
To put it another way, our God is three "Who's" in one "What." Who is God? Father, Son, and Spirit. What is God? ONE GOD.
We see examples of our 3-in-1 God in everyday life. A room, for example, is composed of 3 dimensions--height, width, and depth. Yet it remains one room. Subtract a room's height, and you hae collapsed the room: It ceases to be one.
LDS collapse our God--making Him out to be "no god."
Water is revealed in natural water form, yet water is also more concrete in form like ice [like the Son of God was more "concrete" in appearance to us] as well as more elusive--like vapor [like the Holy Spirit]. Ice=water. Steam = water. Water=water. Three snapshots of the exact same substance.
If you want an excellent biblical snapshot of our concentrated God, look at Col. 2:9: "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form." May I suggest that all do an online search using Col. 2:9 in conjunction with the word "volume." (volume being tied to a formula of multiplication). You'll find some interesting info.
I'm sure some Catholics do say that. We don't see one of the Popes going around, like Ezra Taft Benson, emphasizing "14 Fundamentals of the Pope." You'll find that in American circles, there's more of an emphasis on what the real meaning of priests were in the OT: Man's rep before God--an intercessor--and not as much the reverse of that--God's rep before men.
We actually believe that Gordon B. Hinckley (LDS living Prophet) has this authority...He implores people to obey the Commandments and to love one another. What a monster.
Let me ask you a question: Do you know exactly how many people the Law of Moses saved?
Jesus Christ is my Savior and Redeemer and the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament. It was Heavenly Father’s plan to send His Son Jesus Christ to die for our sins to save us. The Holy Ghost tells me it’s true. [SD]
OK. All the above sounds very "spiritual." But let me call to mind two scriptures: Jeremiah tells us that "the heart is deceitful above all things" (Jer 17:9). Proverbs adds that "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death (Prov. 14:12). There are times I have convinced myself that it was God the Holy Spirit confirming something when it was my own heart doin' the talkin'.
There are times when we need a more objective standard that merges both that which is objective coupled with the Holy Ghost, and that is the Bible. (The Holy Ghost is its very author (2 Peter 1:20-21).
I am glad that you say, Tanty, Every word, every doctrine is subject to the veto of the Holy Ghost for scripture says "Prove (test) all things; hold fast to that which is good (1 Th. 5:21).
The very "burning bosom" confirmation LDS have moved into the front burner of their spiritual life is based upon a partial truth: Look at Luke 24:32. We see there that the hearts of 2 disciples "burned" WHILE JESUS TALKED TO THEM AND WHILE HE OPENED THE SCRIPTURES TO THEM. What can we learn from that?
Notice that it was the Godhead's Second Person, Jesus Christ, who was dealing with them primarily--not the third Person (the Holy Ghost). Yet it WAS the Holy Ghost who inspired the objective standard that Jesus utilized--"the Scriptures." Jesus gave an exposition of the Scriptures. They were not convinced by the Holy Ghost apart from the Scriptures.
Finally, we must be "noble" Christians. We must be like the Bereans of Acts 17:11: "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." (Acts 17:11)
Listen: I think you (Tantiboh) mentioned on a previous post that you considered my "judgment" was at least worth considering. I thank you for that. But my judgment is worthless apart from the foundation from where it comes. Yes, the Holy Spirit guides me often in what to say; but the true nobility (or lack of it) lies in the spirit of every poster and lurker. Nobody is to take my posts at face value; they are to do what the Bereans did: search the scriptures to see if what is said is true.
Every revelation of God is to be judged by the former revelational standard. That is the Scripture given to us by Luke, who was a disciple with Jesus (Acts 17:11-12). We cannot veer from that without heading off the spiritual route marked out for us.
So, let's put this into practice:
Do your "inner testimonies" tell each of you that Joseph Smith saw the Father & Son in 1820?
Secondly does your "inner testimony" each tell you that Brigham Young was a true prophet?
Now we know Brigham said at one point: "I have never yet preached a sermon & sent it out to the children of men that they may not call Scripture" (JoD, vol. 13, p. 95)
So let's look at one of Brigham's sermons where he was very specifically discussing this first vision of Joseph's (he was not discussing any later heavenly visitations Joseph rec'd): "The Lord did not come with the armies of heaven,...But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., ...and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong;...(JoD, vol. 2, p. 171)
So? Well, if you "inner testimony" says that JS saw both the Father & the Son in 1820; and also that BY was a true prophet--but that BY indicates that JS only saw an angel & NOT the Father & Son in that first 1820 vision...then your inner testimony is contradictory. It would never pass muster in a court a law.
Do you really want to base your eternal future upon such shaky external testimonies as that from a 14 yo boy and upon a "prophet" who labeled every sermon was "Scripture."
I believe that you do believe in Jesus Christ as the Savior of the World, but I am told that when you die, the man of the house says if you can get to "heaven" which is your own planet, Is that not correct?
Saundra, Mormons are nice, family people, but Joseph Smith was NOT a good person from what I have read. If your religion IS Jesus based, it's a breakaway, started by a mere man in the 1800's. I'm sticking with the one started in 33 A.D. by Jesus when he gave the keys to the Kingdon to Peter.
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