They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious Bigotry, alive and well today

Saundra Duffy

[Utah Binger]

Just took my water turn at 5:30 AM from the ditch the Orderville Mormon commies built in 1880.

[colorcountry]

That is a pretty ditch. The sunrise must be beautiful.

Wasn’t Orderville one of the longest lived socialist communities in Utah? I’ve heard it was the most successful (probably because when you divide ‘nothing’ up equally, it still equals ‘nothing.’)

But too, I believe Orderville must have had more than its fair share of pious Mormonanity. These “new order” Mormons of today, just don’t know what it used to be like, do they?

[Utah Binger]

The United Order here lasted for about ten years. It was fine and glorious for the first generation. Then, when only the first born could inherit shares in the "order" it caused other siblings to seek other possibilities. It was also the same with polygamy. All the young men were sent out on missions leaving all the girls to the old men. When they returned from their missions, the crops of wives had already been harvested. I believe more than anything that is what caused the failure of American Communism in the west. A shortage of women.

BTW, the mayor of Orderville and his family have restored the last standing building and have opened a soup and sandwich place in the old ZCMI building. Orderville was always known as "Soup Town". We approached them a few years ago with our concerns about historic preservation after our place was put on the National Register. I'm glad they listened and are finally taking pride in the history of Orderville. My words were: Be proud of the history and don't proselyte.

[Osage Orange]

I read your post differently...

Sorry...

[Diamond]

The first vision’s message was very powerful and like many of gods messages to man it has many meanings. I will list just a few of the obvious messages in this Vision.

1. The trinity is a false doctrine. (because Joseph smith saw two personages who were distinct from each other.)

-------------------------------------------

The first vision's message...

To which of Joesph Smith's accounts of the first vision do you refer; the suppressed 1832 account where he only mentions Jesus appearing to him or the 1835 account which mentions "angels" but not God or Jesus?

...because Joseph Smith saw...

You believe in the credibility of a man who said:

"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go."
(History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)

...two personages who were distinct from each other.

A flesh and bone Father, or a Father who is a personage of spirit?

Written by Joseph Smith in 1835, why was the following deleted in 1921?

There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things - by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible; whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space - They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fullness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made, or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man, or, rather, man was formed after his likeness, and in his image;... and is called the Son because of the flesh
(Lectures on Faith, Lecture Fifth, p. 53).

Since that was written in 1835 why does LDS today teach that that Joseph Smith discovered that both God the Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bone when he saw them in his First Vision in 1820, and why did the LDS delete the passage in 1921?

The trinity was the creation of a pagan emperor named Constantine, who called the frist council at Nicea and with a combination of bribes, and threats got the church to agree on a creed that all of Rome could unite behind.

Why would anyone be inclined to accept a characterization of ancient church history from people who can't even get their own comparatively recent history straight?

Cordially,

[MHGinTN]

Uh oh, NOW YOU’VE DONE IT! The poster has raised the issue of the trinity being a fabrication/creation of Constantine because the poster must sow seeds of doubt in Orthodox Christianity (but the poster swears he never attacks Christianity so we ought not highlight the heresies in Mormonism) in an effort to give credibility to the fabrications of Joe and company. Put your padded ear plugs on for the ridicule, condescension, and arrogant smothering of your offering. But personally, I like you beautiful three verse offering which highlights that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one as shown with the resurrection.

[sevenbak]

Thanks for posting that, sevenbak. Since people who are LDS are supposed Kool Aid drinkers, one must conclude that we (including Mitt Romney) would follow our own scriptures when it comes to the role of religion in government. This clearly spells it out for the whole world to see. I’ve always been amazed that a board created to promote conservatism in America focuses so much on the individual religious differences of its members—even though they all hold the same general political beliefs.

I agree, this site is called FreeRepublic.com, not MyJesusisbetterthanyourJesusRepublic.com

[sevenbak]

Speaking of Communism. MHGinTN, did you know that God’s Kingdom on earth will be a socialistic communism? Well, at least that’s what Brigham Young taught, and implemented. Yeppers, Utah had communism back in the 1800’s, That’s where America came up with it’s Anti-Trust laws of the early 1900’s. To abolish the financial hold of the mormon-inspired monopolies of Utah. Just thought I throw in that history. The Dems will use this too, against Romney.

This is such a load of curelom droppings! ;-)

The idea that the law of consecration is anything like communism is preposterous. The two principles both in design and practice are as far apart as the bible and the satanic bible. You, as a former member, know the principle of “opposition on all things”. (2 Nephi 2:11) God’s gifts and ways have always been counterfeited by evil forces. I suppose you would call the early Christians Communists too?

Acts 4:32

And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

Acts 2:44

And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

Further, former LDS president, Ezra Taft Benson, who also served on Eisenhower’s cabinet for 8 years, was a fierce opponent of the evils of Communism. Here is a great talk on the subject, I’ve clipped a little of it for you.

________________________________________________________________________________

Communism introduced into the world a substitute for true religion. It is a counterfeit of the gospel plan. The false prophets of Communism predict a utopian society. This, they proclaim, will only be brought about as capitalism and free enterprise are overthrown, private property abolished, the family as a social unit eliminated, all classes abolished, all governments overthrown, and a communal ownership of property in a classless, stateless society established.

Since 1917 this godless counterfeit to the gospel has made tremendous progress toward its objective of world domination.

Today, we are in a battle for the bodies and souls of man. It is a battle between two opposing systems: freedom and slavery, Christ and anti-Christ. The struggle is more momentous than a decade ago, yet today the conventional wisdom says, “You must learn to live with Communism and to give up your ideas about national sovereignty.” Tell that to the millions—yes, the scores of millions—who have met death or imprisonment under the tyranny of Communism! Such would be the death knell of freedom and all we hold dear. God must ever have a free people to prosper His work and bring about Zion.

I am a witness to nations and people deprived of their freedom. I was there. I watched that great Iron Curtain drop around nations which formerly had prized their freedom—good people. I was aghast as these were written off by the stroke of a pen. I saw Poland abandoned by nations with a heritage of freedom—the United States and Great Britain.

I was in Warsaw in June of 1946. I shared a room with seven other men in the Polonia Hotel, the only hotel even partially intact in the great city of Warsaw. Our ambassador, Bliss Lane, had his office in part of the building. He was so saddened that he resigned and wrote the book I Saw Poland Betrayed, which detailed the failure of the United States and England to keep their promise that the Poles would have a free election after the war.

I saw firsthand our great nation stand by at the time of the Hungarian revolution—when “freedom fighters” with bare hands and stones resisted bullets, tanks, and artillery. I confess I was ashamed at the response of my country—a nation which I believe the Lord intended to be an ensign of freedom to all others. Freedom did not die that day (23 October 1956) for Hungary alone. Hope died for many in other captive nations and has only recently been somewhat revived by courageous men willing to speak against oppression.

Since that day, I have seen the Soviet Union, under its godless leaders, spread its ideology throughout the world. Every stratagem is used—trade, war, revolution, violence, hate, detente, and immorality—to accomplish its purposes. Many nations are now under its oppressive control. Over one billion people—one-fourth of the population of the world—have now lost their freedom and are under Communist domination. We seem to forget that the great objective of Communism is still world domination and control, which means the surrender of our freedom—your freedom—our sovereignty.

On 3 July 1936, the First Presidency published this warning to Church members:

“Communism is not a political party nor a political plan under the Constitution; it is a system of government that is the opposite of our Constitutional government. …

“Since Communism, established, would destroy our American Constitutional government, to support Communism is treasonable to our free institutions, and no patriotic American citizen may become either a Communist or supporter of Communism. …

“We call upon all Church members completely to eschew [shun] Communism. The safety of our divinely inspired Constitutional government and the welfare of our Church imperatively demand that Communism shall have no place in America” (signed: Heber J. Grant, J. Reuben Clark, Jr., David O. McKay, The First Presidency, in Deseret News, 3 July 1936; italics added).

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=3d7f615b01a6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

[MHGinTN]

That was a great speech by Benson. Don’t you long for the days when speeches were so clear and free from policial correctness? Romney would make a big leap for his candidacy if he would make a speech like that, free of influences of political correctness.

[sevenbak]

He was a fierce opponent of communism. Go to LDS.org and search communism and Benson, I think you will like what you find there.

[sevenbak]

Oh, and I think he will too, if he gets the nomination, I think he will campaign against her with a strong constitutional freedom platform that clearly shows the difference between conservative freedoms and Socialist Hillaryism.

[Diamond]

...beautiful three verse offering which highlights that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one as shown with the resurrection.

Here are some more:

3) Who Searches Minds and Hearts?

*JEREMIAH 17:10 I the Lord search the heart, {I} try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, {and} according to the fruit of his doings.

<>1 CORINTHIANS 2:10 But God hath revealed {them} unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

+REVELATION 2:23 . . . I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Cordially,

[MHGinTN]

Keep 'em coming. I love connections. My favorite is from Ian Thomas, of Torchbearer Fellowship: Many are called, but few are chosen; Faithful is He that calleth you, for He will also do it. Of the many called, why are so few chosen? ... Because so few will let Him do it.

[DelphiUser]

The poster has raised the issue of the trinity being a fabrication/creation of Constantine because the poster must sow seeds of doubt in Orthodox Christianity (but the poster swears he never attacks Christianity so we ought not highlight the heresies in Mormonism) in an effort to give credibility to the fabrications of Joe and company.

I have asked you privately, and even apologized privately for anything I have done to offend you, now I am asking you publicly, to ping me on posts about my posts.

If you are going to talk about me, at least have the courage to do so to my face.

Thank you.

[DelphiUser]

To which of Joesph Smith's accounts of the first vision do you refer; the suppressed 1832 account where he only mentions Jesus appearing to him or the 1835 account which mentions "angels" but not God or Jesus?

I refer to the one I linked to previously on this thread, the only version canonized by the church, not hearsay versions written by Colofornian (although his is amusing) or anyone else.

You believe in the credibility of a man who said:

I believe a man who died knowing that recanting his testimony would save him over anyone else’s pajama clad person, hiding behind a screen name.

A flesh and bone Father, or a Father who is a personage of spirit?

Flesh and Bone personages also have a spirit, just as you are a spirit.

Written by Joseph Smith in 1835, why was the following deleted in 1921?

I was not consulted in any editing, if there was any, (Do you have a link to a credible source on this?) nor do I really care since “Personage of Spirit” and “Personage of Flesh and Bone” are equally accurate since he has both, but nice try.

Since that was written in 1835 why does LDS today teach that that Joseph Smith discovered that both God the Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bone when he saw them in his First Vision in 1820, and why did the LDS delete the passage in 1921?

Maybe it was deleted, if it was, because a few people became confused by it. That is one of the things about having a modern day prophet, you continue to get direction.

Why would anyone be inclined to accept a characterization of ancient church history from people who can't even get their own comparatively recent history straight?

I am not confused about history my FRiend.

I cannot help but notice your lack of linkage, perhaps you could not find a web based source for your bald unsupported assertions. I would be happy to help you look, if you will just post the information on the paper based book, I will devote at least 1/2 hour looking for it for you.

I also note that the substance of my post is completely untouched by you, was any of my links in error? Did Constantine not call, open, attend and close the council at Nicea? Was he not a pagan? Did he not then make the Catholic church into the State church of Rome? Please, rather tan filling the screen with red herrings and innuendo provide us with some substance with which to continue a conversation.

I hope you have a wonderful and illuminating day.

[MHGinTN]

See what I mean, the arrogance and condescension are dripping from the screen with that one.

[Colofornian]

I refer to the one I linked to previously on this thread, the only version canonized by the church, not hearsay versions written by Colofornian (although his is amusing) or anyone else.

Hey, we have more in common here than you think. I also find these other non-canonized versions amusing, too!!! :)

Especially another version from Joseph Smith's own diary, written by his own hand, and then also the 1841 JS version that he wrote in 1841 to John Wentworth, editor of the Chicago Democrat.

BTW, why do you find these versions amusing? And why do you reduce one he dictated to F.G. Williams as mere "hearsay." (Can we throw out as suspect everything else JS dictated?...Boy, that would sure be a chunk of material, wouldn't it?)

So, "hearsay" wise I guess that only leaves a Warren Cowdery-recorded diary on behalf of JS, and then what all the LDS prophets said they heard 2nd hand about that vision. (I guess they, too, are "suspect" witnesses, eh?)

[tantiboh]

It’s cute how you dismiss disagreement by labeling it arrogance. No, really, it’s very charming.

[Colofornian]

There is a patriarchal order, of which if and when you become a God you would be part of. But (and it’s a big but too) that has nothing to do with God’s authority over you as a creation of his.

Finally getting around to following up on this. You seem to keep bringing the convo back to God's authority over me; and I keep trying to bring the convo back to God's derived authority--something He didn't inherently have.

Eternal does not always mean the same thing in the scriptures. Eternal is one of God’s names so an eternal covenant (Like Moses’ covenant) was with God, not supposed to be forever...

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. [This one's for Tantiboh, too, based on his earlier invite to "explore common ground" as to how Joe redefined terms]. Joseph redefined "damnation" as being all "damned up"--as stoppage, not as eternal hell fire. The problem is that you've never read the Bible and the Book of Mormon with this "new" def of "eternal" or "damnation." (Just try it). The prob is that the same "adjective" (be it eternal, everlasting, etc.) is applied to heaven just like hell. If hell can be stopped; if spirit prison is just a lousy vacation at a scumbag motel; then that doesn't say much positive about the longevity of heaven, now does it [Because the same exact qualifiers used to describe hell in the BoM & the Bible are used to describe heaven].

So much for "perspective." [What? You can't even read the Bible or BoM w/out a JoeSmith decoder ring to find out what "plain" meanings have been changed from the BoM. I'll I can say is how utterly misleading that is to someone reading the BoM...to not have the D&C passage where Joe redefines "damnation" so that they could realize that "No, the BoM, REALLY IS different than the Bible."]

Me: So, simply put, an orginal god or a council of gods authorized the progression of others to join them as either a "greater council" or gods, or to progress from man to god. [Either way, it was "authorized"]

You: Now you are going off the path here. God the father authorized it. This is his universe; he needs no permission from anyone....God the Father is self-contained.

Let me introduce some other quotes (which also) has "educated" me on what LDS believe:

“The doctrine of a plurality of Gods is prominent in the Bible. The heads of the Gods appointed our God for us...you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves…the same as all Gods have done before you…” Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 370-372, 346

Question: Doesn't your Heavenly Father, having rec'd an "appointment" as God, mean that He rec'd His authority from these "plurality of Gods?"

“We shall go back to our Father and God, who is connected with one who is still farther back; and this Father is connected with one still farther back, and so on.” Heber C. Kimball, JoD, vol. 5, p. 19

This further emphasizes my previous "so on" comment. How is this quote above distinct from my "computer language" comment about infinite regression of gods?

“our God is a natural man...where did he get his knowledge from? From his father, just as we get our knowledge from our earthly parents (JoD, vol. 8, p. 211)

Doesn't LDS directly tie "knowledge" and "authority?" Doesn't this tell about a divine generation upon generation of both knowledge & authority?

“our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; ‘He was begotten by a still more ancient Father; and so on from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another.” Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 132

Yet another "so on" comment similar to my previous comment.

Orson Pratt taught that “The Gods who dwell in heaven…were once in a fallen state….” The Seer p. 23 [whereas Mormon 9:19; Moroni 8:18; Mormon 9:9-11 all say unchangeable]

“We believe in a God who is Himself progressive...whose perfection consists in eternal advancement...a Being who has attained His exalted state” (A Study of the Articles of Faith, pp. 430, 1952 James Talmage

There we have it. If you have a "fallen being" God...one who progressed and will advance eternally, as Talmage wrote; obviously, the "un-advanced"--the "lower degree progressives" at one point held less authority. And, I would point out, "fallen beings" could not have had much authority at all--certainly not divine authority.

All of this de fact proves a line of authority extending beyond your God.

[MHGinTN]

Strike one ...