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They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious Bigotry, alive and well today
Saundra Duffy

Posted on 05/04/2007 5:46:36 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy

They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious bigotry, alive and well today

May 4, 2007 - by Saundra Duffy-Hawkins

“I wouldn’t vote for a Mormon for dogcatcher, much less President of the United States!” There’s a lot of that kind of hateful rhetoric going around since Mitt Romney decided to throw his hat in the ring – as if Mormons are some kind of hideous evil monsters. The loudest anti-Mormon shouts, sad to say, are coming from America’s so-called “Christian right”. How can Mitt Romney hope to get a fair shake in this spiritually polluted atmosphere?

There was another man running for President who faced the same dilemma – John F. Kennedy – only he was the target of anti-CATHOLIC bigotry. In his 1960 speech to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association, JFK said the following: “. . .I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end - where all men and all churches are treated as equal - where man has the same right to attend or not attend the church of his choice - where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind - and where Catholics, Protestants and Jews, at both the lay and pastoral level, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their words in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood.” John F. Kennedy Library & Museum (Speeches, 1960). By the way, if you listen to the audio version of JFK’s speech, you will hear the hurt and frustration in his voice and the unfair treatment surely must have caused many a sleepless night.

Fast forward to 2007 where JFK might as well have been “whistlin’ Dixie”. The hostility toward Mormons today, in my opinion, is even worse than that suffered by JFK. Although it is said that JFK lost about a million votes to religious intolerance, Romney stands to lose even more if the anti-Mormon evangelicals hang together.

According to Media Matters for America - “. . . a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media” - FOX News is not reporting accurately on the level of evangelical hostility to the Romney run. Media Matters for America points out that among evangelical leaders rejecting Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson (National Day of Prayer and Focus on the Family, respectively), the Southern Baptist Convention (collectively), Pat Robertson (Christian Broadcasting Network), and Dr. D. James Kennedy (Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Florida). “Among many conservative evangelicals – who comprise a significant part of the Republican base – Mormonism is considered an un-Christian cult.” Media Matters for America (2007)

While stumping in Florida, a man in the audience stood up during the Q&A portion and said the following to Romney: “You, sir, you’re a pretender. You do not know the Lord. You’re a Mormon.” Media Matters for America (2007). This is the kind of un-American, disrespectful treatment Mitt Romney will apparently have to endure throughout the entire campaign – as if just being a Mormon is reason enough to open the floodgates for free flow of pent-up hatred and vindictiveness.

For the record, the Mormon bashers know full well that the official name of Romney’s church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” and the members should rightfully be called “members of the LDS Church” but the words “Mormon” and “Mormonism” have an aura of negativity so they prefer to use the “M” word as if it were dirty.

Less than five minutes cruising around the official LDS website (LDS.org) will show anyone who’s interested that the Church is a Christian organization, with Jesus Christ at the Head. There are no paid clergy – all are volunteers. Humanitarian aid is legendary. Members of the LDS Church believe in strong family values; they are patriotic, they are law-abiding upstanding citizens of their community. Many LDS young men right out of high school go on two-year missions – you know, the guys on bikes – and during their mission they don’t date, read newspapers, go to movies or watch TV; but rather they dedicate two years of their lives to serving others. Many women go on missions as well, and couples, only theirs is 18 months in length but the obligations are basically the same. Most members do not shop or go out to eat on Sundays – reminiscent of the good old days when shops and stores were closed in obedience to the Commandment, “Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy”. If they can help it, LDS Church members do not work on Sundays, either, preferring to spend the day at church and with their families. Church members are encouraged to store up a year’s supply of food and water so they will be able to care for their families in the event of an emergency. The LDS Church believes in self-sufficiency and self-reliance but in the event of a financial hardship the Church distributes food and supplies through their welfare (Bishop’s Storehouse) program. Members of the LDS Church do not drink alcohol nor do they use illicit drugs; they do not drink coffee and tea. A Mormon in good standing, therefore, will not be found in a drunken stupor puking her guts out at 3 a.m. anywhere in the world. Furthermore, members of the church are encouraged to dress modestly, be polite and courteous. And members of the LDS Church are faithful tithe payers. Come on, people, what’s not to love?

So what on earth is their beef, the anti-Mormon zealots? Why is there such disdain for the LDS Church and its members? In Hugh Hewitt’s book, “Mormon in the White House?” he states his thesis that the fierce anti-Mormon sentiment among main-stream Christians stems from one or two or all three of the following factors (in order of importance):

1) “It is just too weird.

2) “A Mormon president will supercharge Mormons’ missionary work.

3) “If there is a Mormon in the White House, Salt Lake City will call the shots, at least on the biggest issues.” Hewitt (2007, p. 221-227)

Hugh Hewitt has written an exquisite book about the Romney campaign and overcoming the “Mormon problem.” It’s a good read and I highly recommend it. Of the three problem points listed in the previous paragraph, Hewitt believes – unless some unforeseen blunder destroys his chances – none of the three is insurmountable for Mitt Romney. (Plus, he has the best hair.)

Well, I’m no Hugh Hewitt, not even close; he’s an icon on the conservative radio talk show circuit. Hewitt could talk circles around me (I’ve seen him in action in Sacramento); he’s brilliant; he’s well educated, well read, no doubt a genius, plus he’s kind of cute. I’m basically a “nobody” – an overweight grandma – but after having researched for this paper, I have come to a totally different conclusion as to why there is such in-your-face angst over Romney’s religion of choice: It’s all about money, power and control (in that order). I think they’re (the evangelical religious bigots, that is) scared half to death and are revving up their attacks, not to save souls, but to save their reputations (which if tarnished would lead to financial ruin).

As I said, all one must do is browse around the LDS official web site to see what the LDS Church believes and stands for. Any reasonable person would conclude that Mormons are not evil monsters at all. In fact, they are God fearing, Christ believing, Holy Ghost following people going about doing good. “You will know them by their fruit” and the LDS has plenty of fruit and they are willing to share.

Earlier, I stated that some high-powered ministries have publicly condemned Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson, the Southern Baptist Convention, Pat Robertson, and Dr. D. James Kennedy – just to name a few. There are hoards of others. Sunday after Sunday, preachers, evangelists, reverends and ministers from all Christian denominations pound the pulpit with anti-Mormon rhetoric. I heard the message loud clear when I was a Baptist and when I tiptoed through evangelical/Pentecostal territories. Was I ever miffed when I later learned for myself the Gospel truth about the LDS Church.

Just think about it, please. If Dr. D. James Kennedy, for example, who wrote the book, The Wolves Among Us, were to admit he’d been wrong in labeling the LDS Church a “cult” that leads unwary ignorant people astray (to hell), what would become of his multi-million-dollar ministry? Suffice it to say, there’s big money to be had by sale of books, tapes, CD’s, videos, and other anti-Mormon propaganda, not to mention speaking engagements and world-wide religious crusades. We’re talking trillions, all told. I realize the anti-Mormon aspect of these ministries is but a small portion of the business, but if the truth came out, that they had been using falsehoods about the LDS Church as a cash cow, their entire empires could tumble.

The ABC News program 20/20 aired on March 23, 2007, exposed the lavish lifestyles of some of the top evangelical preachers – million dollar mansions and personal jets. ABC News - 20/20 (2007) (Again, the LDS Church has no paid clergy.)

It’s nothing new. Severe harassment and persecution has been the lot of the LDS Church since it’s inception in 1820 when a 14-year-old boy named Joseph Smith saw visions and communed with heavenly beings. Rather than discuss the spiritual aspects of the LDS Church, however, let’s stick to facts of history. Taken from a college-level early American history textbook, Joseph Smith, upon experiencing the visions and visitations, believed “that God had work for me to do, and that my name should be for good and evil among all nations, kindreds and tongues.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 292). The textbook continues, “They were met with hostility virtually everywhere they went . . . . As the movement gathered momentum, hundreds of people joined the church; entire congregations of churches of other faiths joined . . .” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 293)

During the dark time of American history when slavery was flourishing and when Native Americans were forced from their lands, the pioneers of the LDS Church also suffered at the hands of unscrupulous politicians, governmental leaders, and angry hate-filled mobs. “In the face of relentless persecution, Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, had led his flock to Illinois. There they had established the town of Nauvoo, which by the mid-1840’s had become the largest city in Illinois with over 15,000 people. . . In June 1844, a mob of non-Mormons broke into the jail where Smith was being held and killed both him and his brother. . .The Mormons abandoned Nauvoo in the spring of 1846 as anti-Mormons pounded the town with cannon, destroying the Great Temple. In a well-coordinated migration, 15,000 Mormons moved in stages to the Great Salt Lake.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 334-335) Many walked all the way and many died along the way, including innocent babes.

Joseph Smith at one time was tarred and feathered by a mob. No jury, no trial, no judge – and they had planned to castrate him, too. On October 27, 1838, the then governor of Missouri issued an “extermination order”: “The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the State if necessary . . .” Far West History (n.d.) Please note that the order called for exterminating “Mormons” making no distinction between men, women and children, and indeed women and children were subject to the extermination order.

In an event known in LDS history as “the Haun’s Mill Massacre”, precipitated by the extermination order, 30 to 40 LDS families were surprised by some 200 to 250 militia. After the smoke cleared, seventeen LDS people lay dead including a ten-year-old boy. Thirteen LDS members were wounded including a woman and a seven-year-old boy. “A few Missourians returned the next day and took plunder.” LDS FAQ (n.d.) No Missouri militiamen were killed but three were wounded. Just a few years earlier, the LDS folk who died that day had been members of other churches - Congregational or Methodist or Baptist or Presbyterian.

In l976, Governor Bond of Missouri officially rescinded the extermination order and presented apologies for the “unfortunate developments” it caused. Quoting from Governor Bond’s Executive Order: “WHEREAS, Governor Boggs’ order clearly contravened the rights to life, liberty, property and religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, as well as the Constitution of the State of Missouri; and . . . Expressing on behalf of all Missourians our deep regret for the injustice and undue suffering rescind Executive Order Number 44 dated October 27, 1838, issued by Governor W. Boggs. . .” Far West History (n.d.) The individuals who harassed, abused, and even murdered Mormons in cold blood were never tried for their crimes.

I read Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s Letter from Birmingham Jail and it really touched my heart. There he was, suffering for the Lord in jail, and these religious leaders with highfalutin titles on the outside wrote an open letter (“A Call for Unity”) in which they criticize King’s tactics and basically blame King for the racial turmoil of the time. Though you can tell King is upset and hurt by the attack – made worse because he’s stuck in jail and can’t confront the religious leaders face-to-face – his response is gentle genius. “I wish you had commended the Negro sit-inners and demonstrators of Birmingham for their sublime courage, their willingness to suffer, and their amazing discipline in the midst of great provocation. One day the South will recognize its real heroes.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 881)

King has a few choice words for the Church, too: “If today’s church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. Every day I meet young people whose disappointment with the church has turned into outright disgust.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 880)

King signs off with “Yours for the cause of Peace and Brotherhood”.

There’s an eerie commonality between what JFK and MLK endured at the hands of the religious bigots of their day and what Mitt Romney is facing today. I hope and pray that Romney will be able to fend off these undeserved attacks from the religious hypocrites with the same grace, dignity and God-inspired resolve displayed by the other two.

A few popular bumper stickers read: “Honk if you love Jesus” and “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven” or “Jesus is my co-pilot”. Yet, apparently, these same bumper-sticker Christians are the ones waging war against Mitt Romney’s run for the Presidency solely on the basis of his chosen faith in a Church that bears the name of the Savior of the world.

References

ABC News - 20/20 (2007). Philanthropic donations come from your heart, but where do they end up? Ex-money manager says "enough!" to secretive Christian Ministry spending. Glenn Ruppel & John Stossel. United States: ABC News.

Ayers, E. L., Gould, L. L., Oshinsky, D. M., & Soderlund, J. R. (2004). American Passages - a history of the United States - Volume I: to 1877 (2nd ed.). Belmont, California: Thomson/Wadsworth.

Barnet, S., & Bedau, H. (2005). Letter from Birmingham Jail. Current Issues and Enduring Questions - a guide to critical thinking and argument, with readings (7th ed., pp. 867-882). Boston and New York: Bedford/St. Martin's.

Far West History. (n.d.). The Extermination Order and how it was rescinded. Retrieved April 28, 2007, from http://www.jwha.info/mmff/exorder.htm

Hewitt, H. (2007). A Mormon in the White House? 10 things every American should know about Mitt Romney. Washington, D.C.: Regnery Publishing, Inc.

John F. Kennedy Presidential Library & Museum. (1960, September 12). Address of Senator John F. Kennedy to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://www.jfklibrary.org

Lds Faq. (n.d.). What was the Haun's Mill Massacre? Retrieved April 28-2007, 2004, from Brigham Young University Web Site: http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/view.asp?q=57

Media Matters for America. (2007). Fox News whitewashes evangelical hostility to Romney's faith. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200702280002


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: boggsforgovernor; cuespookymusic; election; lds; mormon; mormons; romney; whitesalamanderblues
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To: Colofornian; FastCoyote
I find it interesting that the particular poster has a habit of deception. Take the following example: Jesus calling himself "The Son of Man" is specifically referring to a prophecy from the book of Enoch which the Catholic Church did not want in the bible... The poster asserts that the title 'Son of Man' is found in Enoch, as if it is the ONLY place in the OT where the designation is found so the Catholic Church excluding the Book of Enoch is somehow proof the foundations of Chrsitianity are flawed and in need of Mormon restoration of authority through the con artist treasure schemer, liar, deceiver, serial adulterer, Joseph Smith. Oops! I should have left that truth about Smith off ... don't want to get banned for pointing out truth about the foundations of Mormonism.
2,221 posted on 05/11/2007 1:59:31 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: Colofornian
I said:Does your father have authority over your kids unless you give it to him?

You said:As Jesus told a certain civil leader, "You wouldn't have authority over you unless it was given to you from above." Likewise, no father has any inherent authority. It is derived from our Father above.

Tell that to your father, go on, ask him if he has his line of authority after breaking a rule, come on, then tell me how that works for you.

For the Christian who says there was no God before Heavenly Father (Isaiah 43), that is satisfactory. If they have your attitude, that is not true, they will want proof that there is no one else they can talk to… For the Mormon who believes that Heavenly Father received his authority from a previous God, it's a problem.

IF we believed that, then it might be a problem, but since we don’t, it isn’t.

I thought we had agreed not to tell people what they believe…

So I simply quote Jesus' line of argument and apply it according to the principle of regression--tracing authority to its original source: "You, earthly father, would have no authority unless it was given to you from above." "You, Heavenly Father of this earth, would have no authority unless it was given to you from above." "You, Father-god of Heavenly Father of this earth, would have no authority unless it was given to you from above." "You, Grand-god of Heavenly Father of this earth, would have no authority unless it was given to you from above." Now with an ultimate God somewhere, in computer language the above would go on forever. Mathematically, it's called infinite regression. You cannot proceed infinitely on authority that receeds into impersonal infinity.

God is capable of infinite regression, we are not. To continue the computer analogy (beyond reasonable bounds) your Stack space and mine are not big enough to handle that offset and our processors are way to slow, so the master computer giving us our instructions has not assigned us that problem to solve. He only assigns us problems we are capable of solving, but some processors just don’t seem to be happy accepting programs and corrupt their programs looking for “More” than has been revealed, or programmed into them.

IMHO This is beginning to be a real ugly analogy.
2,222 posted on 05/11/2007 2:10:21 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: DelphiUser
IF we believed that, then it might be a problem, but since we don’t, it isn’t. I thought we had agreed not to tell people what they believe…

OK. It's "correction" time on my assumptions. Please correct my following assumptions, since you indicate they are in error (open invite to set me straight):

My assumptions are based on the following:

Assumption (a) The Heavenly Father of the LDS has a body of flesh & bones as he was born of physical parentage;

(b) Either his parents were gods (of which there is a line of authority) [See Mormon Doctrine, p. 516: "This doctrine that there is a mother in heaven was affirmed in plainess by the First Presidency of the Church...when...they said..'that all men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother'"]...Note: since many LDS use "image" of Genesis to assign divinity to humanity, I suppose we can infer that when an LDS apostle talks about "similitude" re: Heavenly Father to his parentage, that they, too, were divine.

See also: This is based upon the following LDS prophet assertion by Joseph Fielding Smith: "God is an exalted man...our Father in Heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man...The Prophet [Joseph Smith] taught that our Father had a Father and so on...promises are made to us that we may become like him" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1, p.10-12).

OR the god Heavenly Father was/is subject to was of a previous generation of men or gods (in which a line of authority also existed).

(c)The fact that we know there's a "family" of gods out there is that Joseph Smith freely talked about a "divine council" of gods...referenced it in D&C 121 + the LDS Book of Abraham talks about gods counseling "among themselves" (chptr 5)

With such a "council of gods" we know that councils and forming worlds (as is the discussion of the book of Abraham) are done with order (vs. random or chaos). Therefore, order implies authority. Design implies Designer. Some Designer had either final or original authority--even if you say it was "collectively" done.

So, simply put, an orginal god or a council of gods authorized the progression of others to join them as either a "greater council" or gods, or to progress from man to god. [Either way, it was "authorized"]

So, please set me staight. I am simply and utterly confused how a church that puts so much absolute emphasis on priesthood authority can somehow look up at the heavenlies, and say that "lines" of authority don't exist beyond our god(s), even tho we know he wasn't the original one.

2,223 posted on 05/11/2007 2:35:07 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
Oh my! ...
2,224 posted on 05/11/2007 2:43:21 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: Colofornian
I said:God created you, that is where his authority comes from. You then say:You simply beg the question. I ask where the buck stops here God is, and you cite the "creator" issue.

Issue? Do you dispute that he created you? That's like my Mom (everybody remember their Mom this weekend!) responding to me, "Mom, where'd ya get your authority (to discipline me)." Now she might not have, once upon a time, put up with discipline avoidance techniques if that question was posed prior to imposition of discipline.

But if I'm having an adult convo w/her years after the fact; and if we're having a discussion about the "philosophy of discipline," then she would need to answer me in a transparent manner. She can't just say (like you said in effect) and beg the question. She can't just say: "I procreated you, and that is where my authority came from."


My mom still would say that today.

Because while on the surface that's true, that kind of authority could lead to her thinking: "I procreated him, and I can 'unprocreate' via abortion or whatever after birth."

Are you denying that God can destroy you with a thought? He has disciplined by death in the past, and he does not change.

No parent has absolute authority in such a way if they are subject to another higher power.

You are the one asserting now that God does not have absolute authority?

Just for the record Mormons believe that God not only created us, but supports us form moment to moment even while we are sinning or we would die immediately. God can and has every right to “uncreate” us and there is no one to stop him for he has ultimate authority over us.

You seem to like to ask “Tar baby” questions. There is no question that can be asked that can’t be answered unless you cannot understand the answer. If you find yourself getting answers you cannot understand, do not just ask the same question over again, back up and ask simpler questions.

JFTR People who ask questions and don’t understand the answer, often complain of spin or obfuscation. I have not done that, I have answered your question.
2,225 posted on 05/11/2007 3:19:32 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Colofornian

Are you up for the spin of it all? You know you will not get a straight answer. Stop hounding the Apologists to tell you whole truth. They don’t have the authority to do that.


2,226 posted on 05/11/2007 3:26:59 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: DelphiUser
Are you denying that God can destroy you with a thought? He has disciplined by death in the past, and he does not change.

No

I am asserting that if I am dealing with an entity who is not the highest of beings, then there's always an "appelate" divine court somewhere. Now if there's no "higher" being that him, the buck stops there. And all absolute authority is there.

2,227 posted on 05/11/2007 4:08:04 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: DelphiUser
No parent has absolute authority in such a way if they are subject to another higher power. [Me] You are the one asserting now that God does not have absolute authority? [You]

No. I am saying I am consistent in my view of God. He has absolute authority. He reports to no one. He has reported to anyone, as the unanswered questions he shoots out in rapid fashion toward the end of the book of Job indicates.

I don't believe you can say this simple phrase: "My heavenly father has never reported to anyone." I believe that you believe, along with all other true LDS adherers, that every question that God throws out toward the end of the book of Job could be answered by another god amongst the "council of gods"--the "divine council of gods" Joe Smith told you about.

Again, I do not base this on my own "opinion" of Mormonism. I base it on words emitted by your own prophets through the years...words like this phrase:

"The Prophet [Joseph Smith] taught that our Father had a Father and so on..." -- Joseph Fielding Smith (LDS prophet)

As long as there are "so on" gods, there's a thread of authority that runs "so forth" but who knows where (and who knows if such a thread even ever ends)

2,228 posted on 05/11/2007 4:16:20 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: DelphiUser
He has reported to anyone, as the unanswered questions he shoots out in rapid fashion toward the end of the book of Job indicates.

Typo. I meant to say: "He HASN'T reported to anyone..."

2,229 posted on 05/11/2007 4:17:55 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Abigail Adams
In regards to the historic church documents, maybe try taking off your “but there are so many churches and all the doctrines are created by man” glasses. :-)

A. I wear contacts (grin)
B. there are, and they are.

Why do we have churches called Lutheran, Calvinist, Baptist, and the Church of England with it’s US branch the Episcopalian church?

Who started those churches and why?

(Luther, Cavin, Roger Williams and Dr. John Clarke, and the king of England. None of these men claimed to be called of God to restore his church the all, to a man had doctrinal problems with existing churches, so they started their own because they thought every man has authority. They take this from Matt 28:18-20:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 ¶ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
This is similar to me listening in on your boss giving you instructions on how to run payroll and going into your office on payday and writing the checks because you were not in yet.

The bank is not going to honor those checks.

God is all about authority, always has been, and he does not change.

There are those who say he gave his authority to all men, they need to read Acts 19:13-17
13 ¶ Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.
The sons’ of sceva were Aaronic priesthood holders because they were Levites. They figured, they had the priesthood. This was after Jesus’ ascension, and after the command from Jesus to his apostles, the son’s of Sceva were just trying to do works in Jesus’ name but they did not have the authority to do so.

The other place I can point you to is the Bible. I am curious, do Mormons read the Bible often, either in worship, study groups, or for personal edification?

Both, I lost track of the number of times I read thought the NT at 8, OT 4 (the begats got to me too many times) Now I mostly study topically.

To be specific, Mormons use, read, teach, study and revere the Bible.


2,230 posted on 05/11/2007 4:20:19 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: colorcountry

We do proxy work for all the ordinances, CC.


2,231 posted on 05/11/2007 4:23:52 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: colorcountry

“His high powered office, and the repetive use of Romney as an example and used for PR (just like the Church used the Osmonds, Gladys Night, Glen Beck, etc, etc) will be a way to legitimize Mormonism. This will cause great harm to Christianity that believes Christ IS God.

So by our voting for Romney, we are being unwittingly used by the LDS Church to heighten it’s religious standing and legitimacy. “

What a dastardly plot!

I hate too admit it, CC, but you give us far too much credit.


2,232 posted on 05/11/2007 4:25:41 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: FastCoyote

“Luther is a parallel to Joseph Smith and no doubt divinely inspired by the same God you claim to worship.”

I think so too. Luther paved the way for the Reformation, and thereby for the independence of the U.S. and its precept of freedom of religion.

I don’t think the LDS Church would have been able to survive without such an environment, fostered by Luther. I think he was inspired and a key part of the preparation required for the restoration of the Gospel. The same could be said of any of the reformers.


2,233 posted on 05/11/2007 4:29:18 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: colorcountry

CC, not a single word of the translation of the Book of Mormon existed when it was written. English hadn’t been invented yet.

The idea that the concept for “Christ” couldn’t be translated as the word “Christ” just because the word hadn’t been invented yet when the concept was described is very poor logic indeed.


2,234 posted on 05/11/2007 4:33:13 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: Abigail Adams; DelphiUser

“What points of Christian doctrine are extra-Biblical?”

This is not my cup of tea, as I don’t spend much time studying it. I will refer you to DelphiUser, who is much more knowledgeable on the topic.

“I am also wondering, why do Mormons feel the Bible in and of itself is insufficient in revealing the truth about God and salvation?”

Well, all the Bible is is a collection of writings from holy men passed down through the ages. The actual writings that were included in the book were chosen rather arbitrarily. Still, the writings that are there are full of many truths and much wisdom.

But who is to say that the books that were chosen contained everything that was needful? Even among orthodox Christians, the opinions vary; the Catholics’ Bible is considerably thicker that that of Protestantism. Does that mean the extra books ascribed to by Catholicism cannot possibly be the Word of God?

Indeed, many very fundamental truths are not fully explained or clarified in the Bible. For example, the nature of the trinity was a man-made doctrine that was decided by council, rather than by revelation. Were they right? Maybe. But we can’t really tell from the Bible; many verses exist both to support and to undermine the doctrine that they defined.

Also, the Bible, for all its wisdom, cannot provide clear answers to every conceivable challenge we face today. The original Apostles didn’t have to worry about drugs, Communism, pornography, or many of the other modern problems that plague us. All we can do is kind of build a moral framework based on what the Bible tells us, then extend it to make what we think are good decisions regarding the dilemmas that it doesn’t specifically cover.

For all these reasons, we believe that a living prophet is required to keep us in good council. We believe that the Book of Mormon works, not only to add its testimony of Christ to that of the Bible, but also to clearly explain many doctrines over which men have puzzled for centuries. We believe that God lives, that He still loves us, and therefore still speaks to those of us who will listen. This is done on a personal level - and I’m sure you have experienced such personal revelation - as well as on an organizational level - the role that, according to our beliefs, is filled by the President of the LDS Church.

The Bible contains many precious things that are revered by Mormons; it contains the life and teachings of Christ; it contains the ancient prophecies of Isaiah; it contains the eternal covenants of Abraham; it contains many other things that are true and precious. It is the word of God.

But we reject the notion that God is now a mute. And we seek after His guidance continually.


2,235 posted on 05/11/2007 4:56:42 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: greyfoxx39

For this very reason, GreyFoxx, God’s provisions for the extension of these blessings to those who never had a chance at them is a clear expression of His love, mercy, and justice for all of His children.


2,236 posted on 05/11/2007 4:58:31 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: Pan_Yans Wife

“In reading the New Testament, you will find that this belief is grounded in Christianity. God speaks to me. God doesn’t need a prophet to speak to me. He answers my prayers ALWAYS.”

Indeed, we share this trait. Although sometimes I don’t like what God has to say to me...

But I do not have the authority to direct the Lord’s Church. This is what the Prophet is there for.

I realize that you reject the premise that the LDS Church is the Lord’s; but it does explain our belief in modern prophets.


2,237 posted on 05/11/2007 5:08:32 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: Pan_Yans Wife

“So, the unbelievers may look askance at his “holier than thou” attitude and grow disdainful about Romney. They may say to themselves, “This is a man who received prominence in his faith system, and he believes I’m damned. I don’t LIKE him.””

But that’s just it. Faithful Mormons don’t say that, though I have known a couple of idiots in my day that happened to be Mormon. Romney will never EVER say to people, “I believe you are damned because you aren’t Mormon.” Won’t happen. Ever.

Who will say it to them are the people who like to spread lies about Mormons.

Will the electorate believe such people? I don’t know; but I don’t think so. The MSM and the Democrats are losing credibility year by year.


2,238 posted on 05/11/2007 5:11:28 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: Pan_Yans Wife

“God is VERY specific about why faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation.”

So, in your belief, what happens to the Abdul Six-Packs of the world who are born Muslim, never have an opportunity to embrace Christianity, but go through their lives doing good and striving for peace?


2,239 posted on 05/11/2007 5:14:40 PM PDT by tantiboh
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2,240 posted on 05/11/2007 5:18:23 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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