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They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious Bigotry, alive and well today
Saundra Duffy

Posted on 05/04/2007 5:46:36 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy

They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious bigotry, alive and well today

May 4, 2007 - by Saundra Duffy-Hawkins

“I wouldn’t vote for a Mormon for dogcatcher, much less President of the United States!” There’s a lot of that kind of hateful rhetoric going around since Mitt Romney decided to throw his hat in the ring – as if Mormons are some kind of hideous evil monsters. The loudest anti-Mormon shouts, sad to say, are coming from America’s so-called “Christian right”. How can Mitt Romney hope to get a fair shake in this spiritually polluted atmosphere?

There was another man running for President who faced the same dilemma – John F. Kennedy – only he was the target of anti-CATHOLIC bigotry. In his 1960 speech to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association, JFK said the following: “. . .I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end - where all men and all churches are treated as equal - where man has the same right to attend or not attend the church of his choice - where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind - and where Catholics, Protestants and Jews, at both the lay and pastoral level, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their words in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood.” John F. Kennedy Library & Museum (Speeches, 1960). By the way, if you listen to the audio version of JFK’s speech, you will hear the hurt and frustration in his voice and the unfair treatment surely must have caused many a sleepless night.

Fast forward to 2007 where JFK might as well have been “whistlin’ Dixie”. The hostility toward Mormons today, in my opinion, is even worse than that suffered by JFK. Although it is said that JFK lost about a million votes to religious intolerance, Romney stands to lose even more if the anti-Mormon evangelicals hang together.

According to Media Matters for America - “. . . a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media” - FOX News is not reporting accurately on the level of evangelical hostility to the Romney run. Media Matters for America points out that among evangelical leaders rejecting Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson (National Day of Prayer and Focus on the Family, respectively), the Southern Baptist Convention (collectively), Pat Robertson (Christian Broadcasting Network), and Dr. D. James Kennedy (Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Florida). “Among many conservative evangelicals – who comprise a significant part of the Republican base – Mormonism is considered an un-Christian cult.” Media Matters for America (2007)

While stumping in Florida, a man in the audience stood up during the Q&A portion and said the following to Romney: “You, sir, you’re a pretender. You do not know the Lord. You’re a Mormon.” Media Matters for America (2007). This is the kind of un-American, disrespectful treatment Mitt Romney will apparently have to endure throughout the entire campaign – as if just being a Mormon is reason enough to open the floodgates for free flow of pent-up hatred and vindictiveness.

For the record, the Mormon bashers know full well that the official name of Romney’s church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” and the members should rightfully be called “members of the LDS Church” but the words “Mormon” and “Mormonism” have an aura of negativity so they prefer to use the “M” word as if it were dirty.

Less than five minutes cruising around the official LDS website (LDS.org) will show anyone who’s interested that the Church is a Christian organization, with Jesus Christ at the Head. There are no paid clergy – all are volunteers. Humanitarian aid is legendary. Members of the LDS Church believe in strong family values; they are patriotic, they are law-abiding upstanding citizens of their community. Many LDS young men right out of high school go on two-year missions – you know, the guys on bikes – and during their mission they don’t date, read newspapers, go to movies or watch TV; but rather they dedicate two years of their lives to serving others. Many women go on missions as well, and couples, only theirs is 18 months in length but the obligations are basically the same. Most members do not shop or go out to eat on Sundays – reminiscent of the good old days when shops and stores were closed in obedience to the Commandment, “Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy”. If they can help it, LDS Church members do not work on Sundays, either, preferring to spend the day at church and with their families. Church members are encouraged to store up a year’s supply of food and water so they will be able to care for their families in the event of an emergency. The LDS Church believes in self-sufficiency and self-reliance but in the event of a financial hardship the Church distributes food and supplies through their welfare (Bishop’s Storehouse) program. Members of the LDS Church do not drink alcohol nor do they use illicit drugs; they do not drink coffee and tea. A Mormon in good standing, therefore, will not be found in a drunken stupor puking her guts out at 3 a.m. anywhere in the world. Furthermore, members of the church are encouraged to dress modestly, be polite and courteous. And members of the LDS Church are faithful tithe payers. Come on, people, what’s not to love?

So what on earth is their beef, the anti-Mormon zealots? Why is there such disdain for the LDS Church and its members? In Hugh Hewitt’s book, “Mormon in the White House?” he states his thesis that the fierce anti-Mormon sentiment among main-stream Christians stems from one or two or all three of the following factors (in order of importance):

1) “It is just too weird.

2) “A Mormon president will supercharge Mormons’ missionary work.

3) “If there is a Mormon in the White House, Salt Lake City will call the shots, at least on the biggest issues.” Hewitt (2007, p. 221-227)

Hugh Hewitt has written an exquisite book about the Romney campaign and overcoming the “Mormon problem.” It’s a good read and I highly recommend it. Of the three problem points listed in the previous paragraph, Hewitt believes – unless some unforeseen blunder destroys his chances – none of the three is insurmountable for Mitt Romney. (Plus, he has the best hair.)

Well, I’m no Hugh Hewitt, not even close; he’s an icon on the conservative radio talk show circuit. Hewitt could talk circles around me (I’ve seen him in action in Sacramento); he’s brilliant; he’s well educated, well read, no doubt a genius, plus he’s kind of cute. I’m basically a “nobody” – an overweight grandma – but after having researched for this paper, I have come to a totally different conclusion as to why there is such in-your-face angst over Romney’s religion of choice: It’s all about money, power and control (in that order). I think they’re (the evangelical religious bigots, that is) scared half to death and are revving up their attacks, not to save souls, but to save their reputations (which if tarnished would lead to financial ruin).

As I said, all one must do is browse around the LDS official web site to see what the LDS Church believes and stands for. Any reasonable person would conclude that Mormons are not evil monsters at all. In fact, they are God fearing, Christ believing, Holy Ghost following people going about doing good. “You will know them by their fruit” and the LDS has plenty of fruit and they are willing to share.

Earlier, I stated that some high-powered ministries have publicly condemned Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson, the Southern Baptist Convention, Pat Robertson, and Dr. D. James Kennedy – just to name a few. There are hoards of others. Sunday after Sunday, preachers, evangelists, reverends and ministers from all Christian denominations pound the pulpit with anti-Mormon rhetoric. I heard the message loud clear when I was a Baptist and when I tiptoed through evangelical/Pentecostal territories. Was I ever miffed when I later learned for myself the Gospel truth about the LDS Church.

Just think about it, please. If Dr. D. James Kennedy, for example, who wrote the book, The Wolves Among Us, were to admit he’d been wrong in labeling the LDS Church a “cult” that leads unwary ignorant people astray (to hell), what would become of his multi-million-dollar ministry? Suffice it to say, there’s big money to be had by sale of books, tapes, CD’s, videos, and other anti-Mormon propaganda, not to mention speaking engagements and world-wide religious crusades. We’re talking trillions, all told. I realize the anti-Mormon aspect of these ministries is but a small portion of the business, but if the truth came out, that they had been using falsehoods about the LDS Church as a cash cow, their entire empires could tumble.

The ABC News program 20/20 aired on March 23, 2007, exposed the lavish lifestyles of some of the top evangelical preachers – million dollar mansions and personal jets. ABC News - 20/20 (2007) (Again, the LDS Church has no paid clergy.)

It’s nothing new. Severe harassment and persecution has been the lot of the LDS Church since it’s inception in 1820 when a 14-year-old boy named Joseph Smith saw visions and communed with heavenly beings. Rather than discuss the spiritual aspects of the LDS Church, however, let’s stick to facts of history. Taken from a college-level early American history textbook, Joseph Smith, upon experiencing the visions and visitations, believed “that God had work for me to do, and that my name should be for good and evil among all nations, kindreds and tongues.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 292). The textbook continues, “They were met with hostility virtually everywhere they went . . . . As the movement gathered momentum, hundreds of people joined the church; entire congregations of churches of other faiths joined . . .” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 293)

During the dark time of American history when slavery was flourishing and when Native Americans were forced from their lands, the pioneers of the LDS Church also suffered at the hands of unscrupulous politicians, governmental leaders, and angry hate-filled mobs. “In the face of relentless persecution, Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, had led his flock to Illinois. There they had established the town of Nauvoo, which by the mid-1840’s had become the largest city in Illinois with over 15,000 people. . . In June 1844, a mob of non-Mormons broke into the jail where Smith was being held and killed both him and his brother. . .The Mormons abandoned Nauvoo in the spring of 1846 as anti-Mormons pounded the town with cannon, destroying the Great Temple. In a well-coordinated migration, 15,000 Mormons moved in stages to the Great Salt Lake.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 334-335) Many walked all the way and many died along the way, including innocent babes.

Joseph Smith at one time was tarred and feathered by a mob. No jury, no trial, no judge – and they had planned to castrate him, too. On October 27, 1838, the then governor of Missouri issued an “extermination order”: “The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the State if necessary . . .” Far West History (n.d.) Please note that the order called for exterminating “Mormons” making no distinction between men, women and children, and indeed women and children were subject to the extermination order.

In an event known in LDS history as “the Haun’s Mill Massacre”, precipitated by the extermination order, 30 to 40 LDS families were surprised by some 200 to 250 militia. After the smoke cleared, seventeen LDS people lay dead including a ten-year-old boy. Thirteen LDS members were wounded including a woman and a seven-year-old boy. “A few Missourians returned the next day and took plunder.” LDS FAQ (n.d.) No Missouri militiamen were killed but three were wounded. Just a few years earlier, the LDS folk who died that day had been members of other churches - Congregational or Methodist or Baptist or Presbyterian.

In l976, Governor Bond of Missouri officially rescinded the extermination order and presented apologies for the “unfortunate developments” it caused. Quoting from Governor Bond’s Executive Order: “WHEREAS, Governor Boggs’ order clearly contravened the rights to life, liberty, property and religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, as well as the Constitution of the State of Missouri; and . . . Expressing on behalf of all Missourians our deep regret for the injustice and undue suffering rescind Executive Order Number 44 dated October 27, 1838, issued by Governor W. Boggs. . .” Far West History (n.d.) The individuals who harassed, abused, and even murdered Mormons in cold blood were never tried for their crimes.

I read Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s Letter from Birmingham Jail and it really touched my heart. There he was, suffering for the Lord in jail, and these religious leaders with highfalutin titles on the outside wrote an open letter (“A Call for Unity”) in which they criticize King’s tactics and basically blame King for the racial turmoil of the time. Though you can tell King is upset and hurt by the attack – made worse because he’s stuck in jail and can’t confront the religious leaders face-to-face – his response is gentle genius. “I wish you had commended the Negro sit-inners and demonstrators of Birmingham for their sublime courage, their willingness to suffer, and their amazing discipline in the midst of great provocation. One day the South will recognize its real heroes.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 881)

King has a few choice words for the Church, too: “If today’s church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. Every day I meet young people whose disappointment with the church has turned into outright disgust.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 880)

King signs off with “Yours for the cause of Peace and Brotherhood”.

There’s an eerie commonality between what JFK and MLK endured at the hands of the religious bigots of their day and what Mitt Romney is facing today. I hope and pray that Romney will be able to fend off these undeserved attacks from the religious hypocrites with the same grace, dignity and God-inspired resolve displayed by the other two.

A few popular bumper stickers read: “Honk if you love Jesus” and “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven” or “Jesus is my co-pilot”. Yet, apparently, these same bumper-sticker Christians are the ones waging war against Mitt Romney’s run for the Presidency solely on the basis of his chosen faith in a Church that bears the name of the Savior of the world.

References

ABC News - 20/20 (2007). Philanthropic donations come from your heart, but where do they end up? Ex-money manager says "enough!" to secretive Christian Ministry spending. Glenn Ruppel & John Stossel. United States: ABC News.

Ayers, E. L., Gould, L. L., Oshinsky, D. M., & Soderlund, J. R. (2004). American Passages - a history of the United States - Volume I: to 1877 (2nd ed.). Belmont, California: Thomson/Wadsworth.

Barnet, S., & Bedau, H. (2005). Letter from Birmingham Jail. Current Issues and Enduring Questions - a guide to critical thinking and argument, with readings (7th ed., pp. 867-882). Boston and New York: Bedford/St. Martin's.

Far West History. (n.d.). The Extermination Order and how it was rescinded. Retrieved April 28, 2007, from http://www.jwha.info/mmff/exorder.htm

Hewitt, H. (2007). A Mormon in the White House? 10 things every American should know about Mitt Romney. Washington, D.C.: Regnery Publishing, Inc.

John F. Kennedy Presidential Library & Museum. (1960, September 12). Address of Senator John F. Kennedy to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://www.jfklibrary.org

Lds Faq. (n.d.). What was the Haun's Mill Massacre? Retrieved April 28-2007, 2004, from Brigham Young University Web Site: http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/view.asp?q=57

Media Matters for America. (2007). Fox News whitewashes evangelical hostility to Romney's faith. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200702280002


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: boggsforgovernor; cuespookymusic; election; lds; mormon; mormons; romney; whitesalamanderblues
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To: tantiboh
Reading from where?

Records from the trial from the link I posted a couple of times earlier.

1,381 posted on 05/08/2007 10:05:45 PM PDT by Netizen (If we can't locate/deport illegals, how will we get them to come forward to pay their $3,250 fines?)
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To: Netizen

Who is this timeline written by?


1,382 posted on 05/08/2007 10:11:54 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: Utah Girl

I love our Church.


1,383 posted on 05/08/2007 10:12:43 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy (Mitt has the best hair!)
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To: FastCoyote

I’m an adopted Jew. Yahoo!


1,384 posted on 05/08/2007 10:14:11 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy (Mitt has the best hair!)
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To: DelphiUser
This has to be incorrect. CC who is a descendant of John D lee posted something earlier about how they buried the remains and swore a blood oath over the grave.

Ever hear of shallow graves? The wolves dug them up and dismembered them. The link I posted from the trial of Lee and those that did the investigation has a lot of good information, but, of course, you need to actually read it.

1,385 posted on 05/08/2007 10:15:51 PM PDT by Netizen (If we can't locate/deport illegals, how will we get them to come forward to pay their $3,250 fines?)
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To: FastCoyote

You mis-understood me. I didn’t say that the only problems were non-ideological. I said or at least meant to say that the recent media campaign against Mormons, the one that started before Romney entered the campaign, has more to do with demographics than ideology. Utah has the highest reproductive rate in the country, one of the top in the world. Those are all potential conservative voters.


1,386 posted on 05/08/2007 10:21:16 PM PDT by Eva
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To: Netizen

The rules of the LDS Church make sense. For example, coffee makes you nervous and it’s full of acid. I used to drink coffee (before I joined the church) and one time had to quit because it made me too shaky. I don’t miss it. We can drink herbal teas. The “rules” aren’t that bad.


1,387 posted on 05/08/2007 10:22:16 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy (Mitt has the best hair!)
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To: Sherman Logan
There are very specific Jewish DNA markers.

Yes, there are, but how many are there? For that has a lot to do with whether or not they can be tracked today in an impure sample.

Research in this area has done a lot to disprove, for instance, a theory I liked, that the Ashkenazim are primarily descended from the Khazars.

So, two small genetically pure groups of people can be proven to be unrelated.

All American Indian groups have very similar DNA, indicating they are descended from a small group or a small number of related groups. Their closest DNA relatives are found in Siberia.

Siberia, which is “North” and that, is where the ten tribes were heading. (The ten tribes left people behind sometimes, see the book my mother bought.) The Book of Mormon states the tribe of Joseph is the genetic pool you should be looking at.

I know of no connection at all between Indian and Jewish DNA types.

You do realize that Joseph and Judah were born from different mothers, right? Joseph’s children would be closest in DNA to the tribe of Benjamin, not Judah; they would not share DNA from their mothers, so your best tracking agent is gone from the start.

Before you get too excited, yes Rachel and Leah are Sisters, so the DNA would be close, but different owing to the 1/2 rule of their creation, they are both female so that helps (I’ll talk about Mitochondrial DNA later), but there will be a difference or all children of the same parents would be identical twins. (Which begs the question, if we are all descended from Adam and Eve, why the markers at all? But we should address that another day.)

Lets actually talk DNA and Math for a moment :

DNA in the human body is Vast, but finite. The majority of the code in my body will match anyone in the world who is a homo-sapiens to 99.99% it’s that.01% that makes up the genetic difference. So it’s a small piece of the whole, in that .01 % there are markers that identify a person as say being African in origin, or Chinese, or Indian. Every time human beings procreate, only half of their genetic code is passed on to their children, the other half coming from their other parent, this is called sexual reproduction.

Lets set up a test.
Every time we go to a new generation, 1/2 of the markers that we are tracking on average will disappear a .5 will always be rounded up.
Now lets say there are 600 markers that have been identified as coming from the pool we want to track and to be proven a descendent, you must have 5 of these markers, because they can come from other places as well, just these all start out in this pool.
All these children will be by a person not from our pool. (0 markers)
We start with someone who is pure blood (600 markers)
Generation Marker Count
0 600
1 300
2 150
3 75
4 33
5 17
6 9
7 5
8 3
In just 8 generations, you can no longer prove some one is descended from that pool.

They usually don’t have 600 markers, and 5 would allow many false positives.

Not all births follow the 50% of genetic code rule, for example X and Y chromosomes are “Special” a woman is carrying X chromosomes from her mother and her father, there is no telling which she will pass on to a child (statistically speaking, it’s a coin toss) But, the Mitochondrial DNA is always passed from the mother’s DNA, and since Rachel and Leah both had the same mother, they should have the same Mitochondrial DNA, unfortunately, no one is claiming that women from outside the pool were not captured and brought into the Indian population during the settlement of this country, if not before.

The man on the other hand can only pass the Y chromosome that he inherited from his father to his male children, therefore theoretically, if you could track only male children from the pool, and the markers you wanted to watch were all on the Y chromosome you could theoretically track this line forever. Unfortunately no one is saying the Indians have only had Indian fathers, sometimes a white, or a Mexican, or a black joined the tribe. The Indians speak of men coming over before Columbus. Some of them joined tribes as many mountain men did later.

Your pool is tainted; you will never know anything for sure.

And no, I am still not a geneticist, neither do I play one on TV, however, I can do math. Are you now going to say that Joseph Smith knowing that genetic testing could be done in the future purposefully made his pioneers to this new land from a tribe you would not be able to accurately test for? Go read the article we got pinged to by tantiboh it appears to be by a geneticist, prove me wrong. Make my millennium.
1,388 posted on 05/08/2007 10:24:57 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Colofornian
Why, I thought one of the "plain and precious things" that was lost in the NT church was all the prophetesses that abounded in and after Jesus' time?

Can anyone prophecy except the prophet? OF Course. What is revelation? It is "communication" from on high. Are answers to prayer then considered revelation? OF course.

Apostasy is about the removal of the line of authority, the priesthood of God. Not about the removal of all God fearing people.

Isaiah 60

2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

Thessalonians 2:

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

1,389 posted on 05/08/2007 10:26:59 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: MHGinTN
Christ also tell us us to be one as he and the Father are one.

Do you share my body, or soul?

1,390 posted on 05/08/2007 10:32:43 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: sevenbak
We all need a little dung now and then. ;-)

Now you keep that dung to your self young man!

Oh, and ***High Five***

I don't know why, but apparently we are supposed to High Five each other a lot. (Grin)
1,391 posted on 05/08/2007 10:36:40 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: MHGinTN
Bless you sevenbak, you're still caught in the 'created being can be equal with God' rut.

Why yes I am! Except Jesus was never created, he existed from the beginning, as did we all.

1,392 posted on 05/08/2007 10:36:41 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: restornu

NP, what are FRiends for?


1,393 posted on 05/08/2007 10:39:40 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: Netizen
More like he felt he needed to, to buy the poor scapegoat’s silence. I think its called CYA.

You are free to think whatever you like, but if there was evidence, sombody would have come up with it by now.
1,394 posted on 05/08/2007 10:40:27 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: RichRepublican
I’ve counted 35 LDS people here on FR, not including myself

In all of FReepdom? How many subscribers total, 10 k or something?

1,395 posted on 05/08/2007 10:41:10 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: colorcountry
Define Abrahamic Covenant for our readers.

No, you first. I already gave the first volley, your turn. It shouldn't’ be hard, you have a strong background and knowledge of LDS beliefs. What did that verse mean to you from a non-LDS perspective?

“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

1,396 posted on 05/08/2007 10:45:51 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: colorcountry
No one “baited” you into leaving the Church. You complained constantly how they woudln’t leave you alone, kept asking foro fast offerings for the poor, etc, so we offered advice on how to stop it.

Also, you can’t be dragged into court or excommunicated for disagreeing with the General Authorities. When and if you talk to your Stake President about it, he will make it very easy for you, especially when you make it clear to him as you make it clear to us as to your feelings toward the Church.

1,397 posted on 05/08/2007 10:52:00 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: colorcountry
Keep trying resty. Lee was commanded by Dame and Haight.

I misread that at first, I thought it said Lee was commanded by Damn Hate.

1,398 posted on 05/08/2007 10:54:39 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: restornu
Whose posts keep getting removed? Is there another NNN in the making somewhere? Were they offensive, unruly, what?
1,399 posted on 05/08/2007 10:57:16 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: sevenbak

“I really think Mitt can get past this and is going to win!”

I can tell you this, there will be an army of conservatives like me who actively campaign against Mitt. It will split the party just as assuredly as a Giulani candidacy. And all so you can slip your Trojan horse into a position of power.


1,400 posted on 05/08/2007 10:58:11 PM PDT by FastCoyote
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