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They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious Bigotry, alive and well today
Saundra Duffy

Posted on 05/04/2007 5:46:36 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy

They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious bigotry, alive and well today

May 4, 2007 - by Saundra Duffy-Hawkins

“I wouldn’t vote for a Mormon for dogcatcher, much less President of the United States!” There’s a lot of that kind of hateful rhetoric going around since Mitt Romney decided to throw his hat in the ring – as if Mormons are some kind of hideous evil monsters. The loudest anti-Mormon shouts, sad to say, are coming from America’s so-called “Christian right”. How can Mitt Romney hope to get a fair shake in this spiritually polluted atmosphere?

There was another man running for President who faced the same dilemma – John F. Kennedy – only he was the target of anti-CATHOLIC bigotry. In his 1960 speech to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association, JFK said the following: “. . .I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end - where all men and all churches are treated as equal - where man has the same right to attend or not attend the church of his choice - where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind - and where Catholics, Protestants and Jews, at both the lay and pastoral level, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their words in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood.” John F. Kennedy Library & Museum (Speeches, 1960). By the way, if you listen to the audio version of JFK’s speech, you will hear the hurt and frustration in his voice and the unfair treatment surely must have caused many a sleepless night.

Fast forward to 2007 where JFK might as well have been “whistlin’ Dixie”. The hostility toward Mormons today, in my opinion, is even worse than that suffered by JFK. Although it is said that JFK lost about a million votes to religious intolerance, Romney stands to lose even more if the anti-Mormon evangelicals hang together.

According to Media Matters for America - “. . . a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media” - FOX News is not reporting accurately on the level of evangelical hostility to the Romney run. Media Matters for America points out that among evangelical leaders rejecting Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson (National Day of Prayer and Focus on the Family, respectively), the Southern Baptist Convention (collectively), Pat Robertson (Christian Broadcasting Network), and Dr. D. James Kennedy (Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Florida). “Among many conservative evangelicals – who comprise a significant part of the Republican base – Mormonism is considered an un-Christian cult.” Media Matters for America (2007)

While stumping in Florida, a man in the audience stood up during the Q&A portion and said the following to Romney: “You, sir, you’re a pretender. You do not know the Lord. You’re a Mormon.” Media Matters for America (2007). This is the kind of un-American, disrespectful treatment Mitt Romney will apparently have to endure throughout the entire campaign – as if just being a Mormon is reason enough to open the floodgates for free flow of pent-up hatred and vindictiveness.

For the record, the Mormon bashers know full well that the official name of Romney’s church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” and the members should rightfully be called “members of the LDS Church” but the words “Mormon” and “Mormonism” have an aura of negativity so they prefer to use the “M” word as if it were dirty.

Less than five minutes cruising around the official LDS website (LDS.org) will show anyone who’s interested that the Church is a Christian organization, with Jesus Christ at the Head. There are no paid clergy – all are volunteers. Humanitarian aid is legendary. Members of the LDS Church believe in strong family values; they are patriotic, they are law-abiding upstanding citizens of their community. Many LDS young men right out of high school go on two-year missions – you know, the guys on bikes – and during their mission they don’t date, read newspapers, go to movies or watch TV; but rather they dedicate two years of their lives to serving others. Many women go on missions as well, and couples, only theirs is 18 months in length but the obligations are basically the same. Most members do not shop or go out to eat on Sundays – reminiscent of the good old days when shops and stores were closed in obedience to the Commandment, “Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy”. If they can help it, LDS Church members do not work on Sundays, either, preferring to spend the day at church and with their families. Church members are encouraged to store up a year’s supply of food and water so they will be able to care for their families in the event of an emergency. The LDS Church believes in self-sufficiency and self-reliance but in the event of a financial hardship the Church distributes food and supplies through their welfare (Bishop’s Storehouse) program. Members of the LDS Church do not drink alcohol nor do they use illicit drugs; they do not drink coffee and tea. A Mormon in good standing, therefore, will not be found in a drunken stupor puking her guts out at 3 a.m. anywhere in the world. Furthermore, members of the church are encouraged to dress modestly, be polite and courteous. And members of the LDS Church are faithful tithe payers. Come on, people, what’s not to love?

So what on earth is their beef, the anti-Mormon zealots? Why is there such disdain for the LDS Church and its members? In Hugh Hewitt’s book, “Mormon in the White House?” he states his thesis that the fierce anti-Mormon sentiment among main-stream Christians stems from one or two or all three of the following factors (in order of importance):

1) “It is just too weird.

2) “A Mormon president will supercharge Mormons’ missionary work.

3) “If there is a Mormon in the White House, Salt Lake City will call the shots, at least on the biggest issues.” Hewitt (2007, p. 221-227)

Hugh Hewitt has written an exquisite book about the Romney campaign and overcoming the “Mormon problem.” It’s a good read and I highly recommend it. Of the three problem points listed in the previous paragraph, Hewitt believes – unless some unforeseen blunder destroys his chances – none of the three is insurmountable for Mitt Romney. (Plus, he has the best hair.)

Well, I’m no Hugh Hewitt, not even close; he’s an icon on the conservative radio talk show circuit. Hewitt could talk circles around me (I’ve seen him in action in Sacramento); he’s brilliant; he’s well educated, well read, no doubt a genius, plus he’s kind of cute. I’m basically a “nobody” – an overweight grandma – but after having researched for this paper, I have come to a totally different conclusion as to why there is such in-your-face angst over Romney’s religion of choice: It’s all about money, power and control (in that order). I think they’re (the evangelical religious bigots, that is) scared half to death and are revving up their attacks, not to save souls, but to save their reputations (which if tarnished would lead to financial ruin).

As I said, all one must do is browse around the LDS official web site to see what the LDS Church believes and stands for. Any reasonable person would conclude that Mormons are not evil monsters at all. In fact, they are God fearing, Christ believing, Holy Ghost following people going about doing good. “You will know them by their fruit” and the LDS has plenty of fruit and they are willing to share.

Earlier, I stated that some high-powered ministries have publicly condemned Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson, the Southern Baptist Convention, Pat Robertson, and Dr. D. James Kennedy – just to name a few. There are hoards of others. Sunday after Sunday, preachers, evangelists, reverends and ministers from all Christian denominations pound the pulpit with anti-Mormon rhetoric. I heard the message loud clear when I was a Baptist and when I tiptoed through evangelical/Pentecostal territories. Was I ever miffed when I later learned for myself the Gospel truth about the LDS Church.

Just think about it, please. If Dr. D. James Kennedy, for example, who wrote the book, The Wolves Among Us, were to admit he’d been wrong in labeling the LDS Church a “cult” that leads unwary ignorant people astray (to hell), what would become of his multi-million-dollar ministry? Suffice it to say, there’s big money to be had by sale of books, tapes, CD’s, videos, and other anti-Mormon propaganda, not to mention speaking engagements and world-wide religious crusades. We’re talking trillions, all told. I realize the anti-Mormon aspect of these ministries is but a small portion of the business, but if the truth came out, that they had been using falsehoods about the LDS Church as a cash cow, their entire empires could tumble.

The ABC News program 20/20 aired on March 23, 2007, exposed the lavish lifestyles of some of the top evangelical preachers – million dollar mansions and personal jets. ABC News - 20/20 (2007) (Again, the LDS Church has no paid clergy.)

It’s nothing new. Severe harassment and persecution has been the lot of the LDS Church since it’s inception in 1820 when a 14-year-old boy named Joseph Smith saw visions and communed with heavenly beings. Rather than discuss the spiritual aspects of the LDS Church, however, let’s stick to facts of history. Taken from a college-level early American history textbook, Joseph Smith, upon experiencing the visions and visitations, believed “that God had work for me to do, and that my name should be for good and evil among all nations, kindreds and tongues.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 292). The textbook continues, “They were met with hostility virtually everywhere they went . . . . As the movement gathered momentum, hundreds of people joined the church; entire congregations of churches of other faiths joined . . .” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 293)

During the dark time of American history when slavery was flourishing and when Native Americans were forced from their lands, the pioneers of the LDS Church also suffered at the hands of unscrupulous politicians, governmental leaders, and angry hate-filled mobs. “In the face of relentless persecution, Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, had led his flock to Illinois. There they had established the town of Nauvoo, which by the mid-1840’s had become the largest city in Illinois with over 15,000 people. . . In June 1844, a mob of non-Mormons broke into the jail where Smith was being held and killed both him and his brother. . .The Mormons abandoned Nauvoo in the spring of 1846 as anti-Mormons pounded the town with cannon, destroying the Great Temple. In a well-coordinated migration, 15,000 Mormons moved in stages to the Great Salt Lake.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 334-335) Many walked all the way and many died along the way, including innocent babes.

Joseph Smith at one time was tarred and feathered by a mob. No jury, no trial, no judge – and they had planned to castrate him, too. On October 27, 1838, the then governor of Missouri issued an “extermination order”: “The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the State if necessary . . .” Far West History (n.d.) Please note that the order called for exterminating “Mormons” making no distinction between men, women and children, and indeed women and children were subject to the extermination order.

In an event known in LDS history as “the Haun’s Mill Massacre”, precipitated by the extermination order, 30 to 40 LDS families were surprised by some 200 to 250 militia. After the smoke cleared, seventeen LDS people lay dead including a ten-year-old boy. Thirteen LDS members were wounded including a woman and a seven-year-old boy. “A few Missourians returned the next day and took plunder.” LDS FAQ (n.d.) No Missouri militiamen were killed but three were wounded. Just a few years earlier, the LDS folk who died that day had been members of other churches - Congregational or Methodist or Baptist or Presbyterian.

In l976, Governor Bond of Missouri officially rescinded the extermination order and presented apologies for the “unfortunate developments” it caused. Quoting from Governor Bond’s Executive Order: “WHEREAS, Governor Boggs’ order clearly contravened the rights to life, liberty, property and religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, as well as the Constitution of the State of Missouri; and . . . Expressing on behalf of all Missourians our deep regret for the injustice and undue suffering rescind Executive Order Number 44 dated October 27, 1838, issued by Governor W. Boggs. . .” Far West History (n.d.) The individuals who harassed, abused, and even murdered Mormons in cold blood were never tried for their crimes.

I read Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s Letter from Birmingham Jail and it really touched my heart. There he was, suffering for the Lord in jail, and these religious leaders with highfalutin titles on the outside wrote an open letter (“A Call for Unity”) in which they criticize King’s tactics and basically blame King for the racial turmoil of the time. Though you can tell King is upset and hurt by the attack – made worse because he’s stuck in jail and can’t confront the religious leaders face-to-face – his response is gentle genius. “I wish you had commended the Negro sit-inners and demonstrators of Birmingham for their sublime courage, their willingness to suffer, and their amazing discipline in the midst of great provocation. One day the South will recognize its real heroes.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 881)

King has a few choice words for the Church, too: “If today’s church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. Every day I meet young people whose disappointment with the church has turned into outright disgust.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 880)

King signs off with “Yours for the cause of Peace and Brotherhood”.

There’s an eerie commonality between what JFK and MLK endured at the hands of the religious bigots of their day and what Mitt Romney is facing today. I hope and pray that Romney will be able to fend off these undeserved attacks from the religious hypocrites with the same grace, dignity and God-inspired resolve displayed by the other two.

A few popular bumper stickers read: “Honk if you love Jesus” and “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven” or “Jesus is my co-pilot”. Yet, apparently, these same bumper-sticker Christians are the ones waging war against Mitt Romney’s run for the Presidency solely on the basis of his chosen faith in a Church that bears the name of the Savior of the world.

References

ABC News - 20/20 (2007). Philanthropic donations come from your heart, but where do they end up? Ex-money manager says "enough!" to secretive Christian Ministry spending. Glenn Ruppel & John Stossel. United States: ABC News.

Ayers, E. L., Gould, L. L., Oshinsky, D. M., & Soderlund, J. R. (2004). American Passages - a history of the United States - Volume I: to 1877 (2nd ed.). Belmont, California: Thomson/Wadsworth.

Barnet, S., & Bedau, H. (2005). Letter from Birmingham Jail. Current Issues and Enduring Questions - a guide to critical thinking and argument, with readings (7th ed., pp. 867-882). Boston and New York: Bedford/St. Martin's.

Far West History. (n.d.). The Extermination Order and how it was rescinded. Retrieved April 28, 2007, from http://www.jwha.info/mmff/exorder.htm

Hewitt, H. (2007). A Mormon in the White House? 10 things every American should know about Mitt Romney. Washington, D.C.: Regnery Publishing, Inc.

John F. Kennedy Presidential Library & Museum. (1960, September 12). Address of Senator John F. Kennedy to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://www.jfklibrary.org

Lds Faq. (n.d.). What was the Haun's Mill Massacre? Retrieved April 28-2007, 2004, from Brigham Young University Web Site: http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/view.asp?q=57

Media Matters for America. (2007). Fox News whitewashes evangelical hostility to Romney's faith. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200702280002


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: boggsforgovernor; cuespookymusic; election; lds; mormon; mormons; romney; whitesalamanderblues
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To: higgmeister

Ha! I voted for Jimmy Carter. I said I was sorry.


1,121 posted on 05/07/2007 7:44:44 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: Netizen

We are indeed fortunate that Heavenly Father is merciful.


1,122 posted on 05/07/2007 7:50:24 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: restornu

Only God knows and He is perfectly capable of judging the guilty.


1,123 posted on 05/07/2007 7:51:34 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: tantiboh
It looks to me like there is considerable paranoia on the part of some LDS folk hereabouts regarding supposedly widespread using of the "Mountain Meadow Massacre" to fan anti-LDS prejudice.

The vast majority of Evangelicals never heard of this. I was raised in a Baptist church: Sunday School, Sunday Morning Worship, Sunday Youth Group, Sunday Evening Service, Tuesday Boys Club, Wednesday Night Family Bible Class and Prayer meeting, every single week for 18 years.

I never heard of the "Mountain Meadows Massacre."

I went to a "Christian College" and majored in history, later taking the GRE in American History and scoring in the 95th percentile.

Still, I never heard of "Mountain Meadows."

I went on to Moody Bible Institute and did some graduate work at this "West Point of Evangelical Missions." They annually send missionaries to Utah to reach out to Mormons.

And yet I never heard of "Mountain Meadows."

------In fact, I first learned of "Mountain Meadows" at age 58, from this thread.

There may be some particular and small group of evangelicals (maybe in Salt Lake?) that are into pursuing his sort of thing, but they are not main stream and in 58 years, I've never met them.

1,124 posted on 05/07/2007 8:08:55 PM PDT by cookcounty (No journalist ever won a prize for reporting the facts. --Telling big stories? Now that's a hit.)
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To: MEGoody
Voting for someone just because they call themselves a Christian is dumb. (Clinton called himself a Christian, which shows that 'faith labels' don't work.)

Before you post, scan the post better of what you're responding to. I said in #1061: I do not weigh the above in isolation; a candidate's character and values, position stances on social issues, voting and public track record, etc. are also important to integrate into the entire package.

Sometimes a candidate's values, position stances on social issues, voting & public track record will betray what they are telling us about their faith. (Kind of like a certain New England gov who was pro-abortion in the mid-90s despite saying he was LDS who believed in pre-existent spirits awaiting bodies in the womb to inhabit)

In Clinton's case, he didn't even believe that life began until birth. (According to Time mag, he based that on the religious stance of his pastor) So this was a religious belief in his case.

But for too many folks around here, they would tell us not to be critical of Clinton's religious beliefs.

What fools. Wave a magic wand over any belief, designate it as sacred and therefore untouchable to criticism, and you can get away with most anything.

If the "don't criticize a candidate's religion" are consistent, then they have to compromise and say, "Well, I guess we can't be too hard on Clinton for having a religious belief that life begins at birth."

1,125 posted on 05/07/2007 8:09:36 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan
I believe a relationship with Christ can be lost (unlike other evangelicals here & elsewhere). But LDS also believe salvation can be lost.

So, then, salvation is by works, and it is not by grace.

1,126 posted on 05/07/2007 8:39:01 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: cookcounty; George W. Bush; MEGoody; Sherman Logan

I agree with you, Cookcounty. Unfortunately, detractors of the LDS Church have a rucksack of very predictable, very worn stories, rumors, and quotes that they draw upon in their attempts to discredit Mormonism. The Mountain Meadows Massacre is one of their favorites.

I have learned over the last couple of months that the real kind of religious bigotry against Mormons, which we’ve seen displayed at times on this thread and several others, is thankfully pretty isolated. Unfortunately, those who have an axe to grind always seem to crawl out of the woodworks where the topic of Romney and his religion comes up. I see the same people on the same threads over and over again, throwing the same sets of tired accusations against the wall to see if maybe THIS time, something will stick.

As a Mormon, I feel duty-bound to refute such people (perhaps this is a mistake?), not for their sakes as much as for the bystanders and lurkers who read the misconceptions and falsehoods that they continue to perpetuate about my faith - and I admit to getting piqued at people who insist on informing me as to what I believe and why. Maybe I’m only hurting my cause by doing so; I’d like to think not, but I don’t know.

I am gratified to see more reasonable people also show up - for example, George W. Bush, MEGoody, and Sherman Logan (among others I’m sure I’ve missed) - who, while they may disagree with Mormons vociferously on theological grounds, have the graciousness to defend our right to believe as we do, grant our faith the same “grain of salt” that they’re willing to grant any other denomination, and are willing to consider Romney in light of political qualifications rather than religious ones.

I think there are a lot more people like them than like the detractors of the LDS Church.

Our detractors are right about one thing, though: that whole rucksack of half-baked criticism may be hurled at Romney if he wins the nomination. The big question is: how will the millions of people like you, who have never heard of these darker corners of the history of the LDS Church, react to such seemingly troubling news about a religion that they had always considered to be quirky at worst?

I’m an optimist; I tend to think that the electorate will recoil at such tactics, and that such a move would backfire severely on the perpetrators. Am I right? We may or may not find out. It will be a sad day for America if I am not.


1,127 posted on 05/07/2007 8:39:46 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: Saundra Duffy
We are indeed fortunate that Heavenly Father is merciful.

Yes, and He is just.

Matthew 16
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

1,128 posted on 05/07/2007 8:56:12 PM PDT by Netizen (If we can't locate/deport illegals, how will we get them to come forward to pay their $3,250 fines?)
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To: xzins
So, then, salvation is by works, and it is not by grace.

When Adam & Eve had a perfect relationship with God on earth; it was one bestowed on them. They didn't earn it. They were given it. Now when they were locked out of the garden, that was "works" in action. Distrust and lack of faith about the one tree off-limits resulted in bad fruit.

When Satan had a perfect relationship with Heavenly Father prior to our existence, it was one bestowed on him. He didn't earn "angel wings" like the "It's a Wonderful Life" angel. When he fell, he was booted from heaven. That was "works" in action: "I will be like the most High" (Is 14:14). Pride. The same kind of pride found in every LDS who wants to be a god. "I will be like the most high," they say.

You've got a twisted mindset if you think that just because an angel or a man and woman can commit spiritual suicide, thereby rejecting their living relationship with Christ, and then somehow that "proves" salvation by works.

Listen, you need to read 1 Cor. 12:3 carefully: "No one [that means no one] can say that Jesus is LORD except by the Holy Spirit." The Lordship of Jesus, even in uttering that with true sincerity, is not of you or me. The Holy Spirit gets the 100% credit. Now how is that "works" when you can even proclaim "Jesus is Lord" in a sincere way minus the operation of the Holy Spirit?

Think of the above scenario with Adam & Eve: It's only in Mormonism that the Fall...murders, rape, child abuse, incest, terrorist killings, 9-1-1, bombings, warfare, porn, abortions, is referred to in LDS theology as an "upward" one. Wanna explain why LDS believe that the Fall was an "upward fall?" Is that kind of like of the downward ascension of Satan...he fell but became a god of this world?).

[For those of who you don't know LDS theology: They believe that it was ONLY because of Adam and Eve's sin that it opened the door for men to progress to godhood. Had they not sinned; then godhood would be off-limits]

1,129 posted on 05/07/2007 8:56:38 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: blue-duncan; P-Marlowe; xzins
Corrected a typo in graph 4 below...since xzins addressed his "salvation is by works, then" comment to you, two, as well...copying this:

When Adam & Eve had a perfect relationship with God on earth; it was one bestowed on them. They didn't earn it. They were given it. Now when they were locked out of the garden, that was "works" in action. Distrust and lack of faith about the one tree off-limits resulted in bad fruit.

When Satan had a perfect relationship with Heavenly Father prior to our existence, it was one bestowed on him. He didn't earn "angel wings" like the "It's a Wonderful Life" angel. When he fell, he was booted from heaven. That was "works" in action: "I will be like the most High" (Is 14:14). Pride. The same kind of pride found in every LDS who wants to be a god. "I will be like the most high," they say.

You've got a twisted mindset if you think that just because an angel or a man and woman can commit spiritual suicide, thereby rejecting their living relationship with Christ, and then somehow that "proves" salvation by works.

Listen, you need to read 1 Cor. 12:3 carefully: "No one [that means no one] can say that Jesus is LORD except by the Holy Spirit." The Lordship of Jesus, even in uttering that with true sincerity, is not of you or me. The Holy Spirit gets the 100% credit. Now how is that "works" when you can't even proclaim "Jesus is Lord" in a sincere way minus the operation of the Holy Spirit?

Think of the above scenario with Adam & Eve: It's only in Mormonism that the Fall...murders, rape, child abuse, incest, terrorist killings, 9-1-1, bombings, warfare, porn, abortions, is referred to in LDS theology as an "upward" one. Wanna explain why LDS believe that the Fall was an "upward fall?" Is that kind of like of the downward ascension of Satan...he fell but became a god of this world?).

[For those of who you don't know LDS theology: They believe that it was ONLY because of Adam and Eve's sin that it opened the door for men to progress to godhood. Had they not sinned; then godhood would be off-limits]

1,130 posted on 05/07/2007 9:01:12 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan

It seems to me that you’re saying that salvation isn’t really. “Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

I think that’s true.


1,131 posted on 05/07/2007 9:07:17 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: red irish
There are many pastors of many churches,my own included,that do not preach the Gospel they go through the motions. For me that is a clear sign of the beginning of the end times. How men of God,or women,can go along with abortion and push the agenda of the homosexuals in schools to young children. It is good to have these discussions because I believe we are going to really need each other down the road. I love my faith,Catholic,but my parish can be very elite and cold. I am sick a lot and have never had a member of my church visit. In some parishes they are close and there for one another.

Just FREEPmail me when you have an issue ya wanna discuss.

1,132 posted on 05/07/2007 9:09:27 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: greyfoxx39
Are women allowed to offer the prayers over the sacrament in the LDS church yet? They weren't when I was a member,

If you can find precedence in the holy bible of Christ of His apostles giving the priesthood to women, or women performing ordinances such as baptism, blessing the sacrament, etc, then we can have a logical discussion about this. When you find it, let me know.

The priesthood is not discriminatory, it is of God, as it was in times of old. Women have their own holy and honored callings in the Church, and compliment and support the offices of the priesthood. It’s a compatible and perfect fit.

1,133 posted on 05/07/2007 9:09:53 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: xzins

We are ALL saved by grace xzins there is no dispute.

Works is how the Lord evaluates our reward.

Rev. 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev. 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14
2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also


1,134 posted on 05/07/2007 9:13:49 PM PDT by restornu (Elevate Your Thoughts!)
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To: restornu

There is a dispute. Some think we are not saved by grace. Some say so directly, and some say so indirectly.


1,135 posted on 05/07/2007 9:15:51 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: colorcountry
I thought it was funny (sad) in the last general conference when the Prophet Gordon B. Hinkley stated that his wife was his most prized possession.

Let’s look at what he actually said shall we. I actually found it a beautiful and love filled statement. His advice to the women in the last sentence is even better, considering all us wayward men!:

"May there be peace and harmony in your homes. Husbands, love and treasure your wives. They are your most precious possessions. Wives, encourage and pray for your husbands. They need all the help they can get. Parents, treat your children with great kindness. They are the coming generation who will bring honor to your name."

1,136 posted on 05/07/2007 9:16:00 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: sevenbak

touching


1,137 posted on 05/07/2007 9:17:13 PM PDT by colorcountry (It is wrong to criticize the leaders of the church even if the criticism is true ~Dallin Oaks)
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To: xzins

All are saved by grace from hell, as long as they are not the Son of Perdition.


1,138 posted on 05/07/2007 9:20:45 PM PDT by restornu (Elevate Your Thoughts!)
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To: colorcountry

Oh, and BTW, unless there was another reference, he didn’t mention Sister Hinckley. You might want to double check your references before you post. ;-)


1,139 posted on 05/07/2007 9:21:02 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: sevenbak

again, touching


1,140 posted on 05/07/2007 9:22:14 PM PDT by colorcountry (It is wrong to criticize the leaders of the church even if the criticism is true ~Dallin Oaks)
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