Posted on 04/28/2007 9:57:35 AM PDT by kellynla
Actually it does say just that. Luke 17:3- "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
Just curious, what is your background that makes you such an “expert” on Christianity?
I can read.
L
I thought you might come back with that, but I waited. Actually it is not Luke who is commanding this, but Christ, who IS NOT setting conditional demands for forgiveness, but rather demanding that if this happens, you MUST forgive. He is NOT saying “you need not forgive if the person does not come and ask” That is the most fundamental of logical fallacies, the unsupported middle. Following your logic, Jesus himself violated his own directive by praying for the forgiveness of his unrepentant torturers on the cross. So, while Jesus says explicitly that if a person shows remorse that we must receive his repentance as genuine, you may not twist that teaching into saying that we are NOT to forgive if he does not come. Nothing in the passage intimates that, and it is in fact a violation of other clear biblical teaching. (I generally don’t like to proof text, but if you want, I’ll give em to you).
“Actually it does say just that. Luke 17:3- “Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.”
Where does it say not to forgive someone who doesn’t repent?
Logical fallacy my man. Why state that if someone repents, then you must forgive when one sentence before we are told to rebuke sinners who don't repent? Your argument makes no sense. Why not just say "Forgive everyone whether they repent or not? Why talk about the whole rebuking thing at all? Why put the conditional "if they repent" in there?
Jesus himself violated his own directive by praying for the forgiveness of his unrepentant torturers on the cross
No he didn't. He asked His Father to forgive them. "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." Big difference.
Nothing in the passage intimates that,
I guess you define 'rebuke' differently than most folks.
L
L
Highly doubtful if these animals would really seek forgiveness.
And was reminded of a sweet little Christian girl I knew in high school, who, upon hearing that I had been converted to Christ, went into her room, got down on her knees, and prayed "God, if you can save THAT guy you can save anyone."
Remember these words "I did not come for the righteous, but sinners." The bigger sinners they are, the more of an indication they are indeed, the people for whom Christ came. On the other hand, the more you think they are horrid filthy worthless beings, the more that is an indication that you think of yourself as "righteous" (at least in comparison to them), and the less you believe that Christ came for YOU....., and that is a bad bad bad state to be in. Just for thought.
No, resist beforehand, and forgive afterward.
Let us define, then, what you mean by “forgiving” them.
My own definition, which I think is biblical, is not to hold someone’s offence against you, but to cease the desire to retaliate and entrust that person’s future to God, as you have entrusted your own to Him.
Would you accept that as a working definition?
43”You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. — and do not quibble about the mechanical absence of the word “forgive” It is impossible to do these things WITHOUT forgiving.
Moses prayed for the unrepentant Israelites in Exodus 32, SPECIFICALLY asking for forgiveness
Matt 6:12 specifically says that we should ask to be forgiven just as we forgive. It says nothing about worthy attitudes by which we “earn” forgiveness.
Matthew 18:35 says you will not be forgiven if you do not forgive.
Mark 11:25 says you should forgive WHEN YOU REMEMBER THAT YOUR BROTHER HAS SINNED.... AS YOU ARE PRAYING. It says nothing about this person coming to you and asking you for it. In fact, it specifically FORBIDS you waiting to do so.
If you need more, I have em
No. The Christian Bible states that forgiveness is acting as though the sin or transgression never happened. That's stated quite clearly in Matthew I believe.
Here's the one I use:
Too often Christians are told to GIVE forgiveness for their own health or so that their sins can be forgiven, even if the sinner is unrepentant--this is unbiblical and destructive to the individual believer, the sinner who is unrepentant, and to the body of Christ, HIS Church, as well as to the non-believer.
A heart of forgiveness patiently/eagerly waits to give forgiveness, as displayed in Matthew 18:21-35 knowing that their sin against God is far greater than another human's sin against them, and by God's grace, the heart of forgiveness shows Christ's love, mercy, compassion, patience, grace, etc. thereby inviting the sinner to repent and enjoy God's wonderfulness and Christian community through repentance and believing in Christ's forgiveness of their sins and adding their forgiveness, their covenant to not hold their sins against them.
God does NOT forgive where there is no repentance but God does show common grace and mercy as HE invites sinners to HIM through Godly repentance.
This idea of forgiving everyone willy nilly whether they've sincerely repented or not is postively un-Biblical.
L
Does 'pray' mean 'forgive'? Are the two words interchangeable?
It is impossible to do these things WITHOUT forgiving.
Wrong. Of course I can pray for them without forgiving them. I can pray for them to repent so I can then forgive them, thus fullfilling the Masters commands. If they aren' sincerely repentant, then forgiveness is not only useless, it's destructive.
L
I’m not that kind of Christian.
“She is saying that the gospel of Jesus Christ says that evil will be defeated by overcoming evil with good.”
I agree, though I also believe we live in a fallen world. Your argument is the same as the Quakers and other pacifists who use Jesus as a justification for not responding appropriately to threats.
I was in Colombia SA a few years back and "Alpha Omega"(latin america Campus Crusade) had a campus event to preach the gospel. Marxism was very strong, and the students were attacked and beaten. These young men witnessed to their attackers of the love of Christ WHILE they were pelted with rocks, bricks, and other stuff (yeah, they dodged them). They did not just act like idiots, though. Latino culture is VERY "gallant" in that they simply will not attack women, so the girls in AO formed a protective cordon around the guys and locked arms, and the men kept on witnessing. The love of Christ was so powerful that day that many were profoundly moved and more than a few became Christians.
These people understand that loving your enemies and forgiving are part of the same package. You can't do one without the other.
Actually, check a little further down. The state bears the sword, not individuals. The state dispenses justice, not mercy. We dispense mercy and forgiveness, not the state. Quakers and pacifists err in applying Jesus's command to individuals as though they were directed to people acting in offices of the state. If that were so, John the Baptist, when asked by soldiers what they should do, would have said to lay down their arms and leave the army. He did not. Again, that is a misapplied command, which carried out, would result in civil anarchy if the majority of the population were converted, as Christians would be commanded to leave all positions which use force to maintain justice. This is silly, especially in light of Romans 12.
Mark 11:25 says you are wrong.
Werll, what then should be her response? Should she call upon the furies to kill them? What she did was less about them, though, than about herself. She seems not to want hatred to consume her. Love your enemies is pretty unequivocal. Hard to do, but that is what we are commanded to do.
But having done so, the demands of justice were satisfied, and as such God could now freely forgive people of their sins. He could have forgiven people unconditionally, but instead he decided to require people to be qualified to receive such forgiveness, and thus although such forgiveness is free for those who are qualified, it is not unconditional.
One thing to note here is the condition for forgiveness which is often overlooked in practice. "If he repents". Yes, just as Jesus forgave those who crucified him there are times to forgive sins committed against us done in ignorance, but for those of which were done consciously, it is appropriate that repentance be required before granting such forgiveness. For in doing so we are forgiving just as God has forgiven us - freely but not unconditionally.
L
You have plenty of company.
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