Anglican head Williams says anti-gays misread Bible (Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams)

Reuters on Yahoo ^ | 4/17/07 | Tom Heneghan

[NormsRevenge]

PARIS (Reuters) - The spiritual leader of the world's 77 million Anglicans has said conservative Christians who cite the Bible to condemn homosexuality are misreading a key passage written by Saint Paul almost 2,000 years ago.

Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, addressing theology students in Toronto, said an oft-quoted passage in Paul's Epistle to the Romans meant to warn Christians not to be self-righteous when they see others fall into sin.

His comments were an unusually open rebuff to conservative bishops, many of them from Africa, who have been citing the Bible to demand that pro-gay Anglican majorities in the United States and Canada be reined in or forced out of the Communion.

"Many current ways of reading miss the actual direction of the passage," Williams said on Monday, according to a text of his speech posted on the Anglican Church of Canada's Web site.

"Paul is making a primary point not about homosexuality but about the delusions of the supposedly law-abiding."

The worldwide Anglican Communion is near breaking point over homosexuality, with conservative clerics insisting the Bible forbids gay bishops or blessings for same-sex unions. Its U.S. branch, the Episcopal Church, named a gay bishop in 2003.

In fact, Williams also revealed on Tuesday that he had considered canceling the Anglicans' once-a-decade 2008 Lambeth Conference, which has the potential to become a flashpoint over homosexuality.

"Yes, we've already been considering that and the answer is no," he told the Anglican Church of Canada's Anglican Journal.

"We've been looking at whether the timing is right, but if we wait for the ideal time, we will wait more than just 18 months."

In the passage of Romans that Williams referred to in Monday's speech, Paul said people who forgot God's words fell into sin. "Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion," Paul wrote.

Williams said these lines were "for the majority of modern readers the most important single text in Scripture on the subject of homosexuality." But right after that passage, Paul warns readers not to condemn those who ignore God's word.

"At whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself," wrote Paul, the first-century apostle whose epistles, or letters, to early Christian communities elaborated many Church teachings.

NEITHER SIDE WINS

Williams said reinterpreting Paul's epistle as a warning against smug self-righteousness rather than homosexuality would favor neither side over the other in the bitter struggle that threatens to plunge the Anglican Communion into schism.

It would not help pro-gay liberals, he said, because Paul and his readers clearly agreed that homosexuality was "as obviously immoral as idol worship or disobedience to parents."

This reading would also upset anti-gay conservatives, who have been "up to this point happily identifying with Paul's castigation of someone else," and challenge them to ask whether they were right to judge others, he added.

"This does nothing to settle the exegetical questions fiercely debated at the moment," Williams said.

But he said a "strictly theological reading of Scripture" would not allow a Christian to denounce others and not ask whether he or she were also somehow at fault.

Williams warned of the danger of schism.

"The Communion has to face the fact that there is a division in our Church and it's getting deeper and more bitter," he said. "If the Anglican Church divides, everyone will lose."

(Additional reporting by Randall Palmer in Ottawa)

[Tulsa Ramjet]

And its not like Paul decided this on his own in the later years.

Leviticus is God’s direct marching orders to Moses:

Leviticus, Chapter 18
1 The LORD said to Moses,

2 “Speak to the Israelites and tell them: I, the LORD, am your God.

3 You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you once lived, nor shall you do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you; do not conform to their customs.

4 My decrees you shall carry out, and my statutes you shall take care to follow. I, the LORD, am your God.

5 Keep, then, my statutes and decrees, for the man who carries them out will find life through them. I am the LORD.

6 “None of you shall approach a close relative to have sexual intercourse with her. I am the LORD.

7 You shall not disgrace your father by having intercourse with your mother. Besides, since she is your own mother, you shall not have intercourse with her.

8 You shall not have intercourse with your father’s wife, for that would be a disgrace to your father.

9 You shall not have intercourse with your sister, your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in your own household or born elsewhere.

10 You shall not have intercourse with your son’s daughter or with your daughter’s daughter, for that would be a disgrace to your own family.

11 You shall not have intercourse with the daughter whom your father’s wife bore to him, since she, too, is your sister.

12 You shall not have intercourse with your father’s sister, since she is your father’s relative.

13 You shall not have intercourse with your mother’s sister, since she is your mother’s relative.

14 You shall not disgrace your father’s brother by being intimate with his wife, since she, too, is your aunt.

15 You shall not have intercourse with your daughter-in-law; she is your son’s wife, and therefore you shall not disgrace her.

16 You shall not have intercourse with your brother’s wife, for that would be a disgrace to your brother.

17 You shall not have intercourse with a woman and also with her daughter, nor shall you marry and have intercourse with her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter; this would be shameful, because they are related to her.

18 While your wife is still living you shall not marry her sister as her rival; for thus you would disgrace your first wife.

19 “You shall not approach a woman to have intercourse with her while she is unclean from menstruation.

20 You shall not have carnal relations with your neighbor’s wife, defiling yourself with her.

21 You shall not offer any of your offspring to be immolated to Molech, thus profaning the name of your God. I am the LORD.

22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination.

23 You shall not have carnal relations with an animal, defiling yourself with it; nor shall a woman set herself in front of an animal to mate with it; such things are abhorrent.

24 “Do not defile yourselves by any of these things by which the nations whom I am driving out of your way have defiled themselves.

25 Because their land has become defiled, I am punishing it for its wickedness, by making it vomit out its inhabitants.

26 You, however, whether natives or resident aliens, must keep my statutes and decrees forbidding all such abominations 27 by which the previous inhabitants defiled the land;

28 otherwise the land will vomit you out also for having defiled it, just as it vomited out the nations before you.

29 Everyone who does any of these abominations shall be cut off from among his people.

30 Heed my charge, then, not to defile yourselves by observing the abominable customs that have been observed before you. I, the LORD, am your God.”

So, even though I agree that we shouldn’t be judgemental and sin is sin, no matter what degree, this priest cannot expect followers to discard aberrant behavior, regardless is someone is genetically born with the disposition of desire for the same sex, or someone chooses it. If they continue the behavior, than it is against God’s word. There is no real debate on that and their is nothing wrong with reminding people of that if they choose to act in a public way, then they need to be publicly challenged. Their behavior thrown in the faces of those that are disgusted with it, is not a right. Its a personal choice to act on desire that is against certain people’s beliefs.

[B-Chan]

THIS is why the Magisterium of the Church is vital. As long as there is no final authority on what the Scriptures teach, each denomination/synod/communion/individual believer has the ability to “interpret” the Scriptures to mean whatever they want. When every man is his own Pope, error is inevitable.

The Holy Father (and the bishops in union with him) are our guarantee that the doctrines taught by the Catholic Church are the same doctrines taught by our Lord and His apostles.

[Ahithophel]

The Apostle Paul writing under divine inspiration:

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.I Cor. 6:8-11 NASV.

Note: “Such WERE some of you, but you were washed . . .”

[britemp]

‘What’s so hard to comprehend about that?’

Depends whether Leviticus was talking to a man or a woman at the time really. . . . . ;-)

[DiogenesTheDog]

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Do you believe Christians are bound to obey all Levitical law? Or only certain passages? If it's the later, how do you pick and choose which to follow and which to discard?

Regarding the specific passage you've provided, do you also think that Leviticus 20:13, which proscribes death for homosexuals, should also be followed? If not, why the former passage but not the latter?

[longtermmemmory]

If its REUTERS ITS WRONG!

Who is this flaming liberal? Seems like he is trying to have a homo-pride parade of one.

Reuters can’t do math since the supermajority of states forbid homosexual marriage via constitution or law.

[Huber]

Thanks to neodad for the ping.

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Speak the truth in love. Eph 4:15

[The article, from Reuters, obviously is written in a manner to insinuate further evidence to undermine traditional Christianity. My take on ABC's comments is that his message to the homosexuals that the Bible has not changed and that his message to the orthodox is not to be smug in self-rightousness--Huber]

[Old North State]

Christians who cite the Bible to condemn homosexuality are misreading a key passage written by Saint Paul almost 2,000 years ago.

Wow, Everybody has been wrong for two thousand years?, are we ever lucky this Williams guy came along to straighten us out.

[Pietro]

I can’t imagine a more vapid reading of Romans.

[ViLaLuz]

It’s always amazing that those who’ve made themselves god accuse those who sacrifice self to follow God for being “self-righteous.”

Hypocrites.

[HamiltonJay]

Williams is a CRACKPOT.... Anglican like all the other spliter factions of christianity have lost their way.

There is absolutely no way you can read the Christian Bible and conclude that God does not condem homosexuality. Male homosexuality is condemned soundly in numberous passages. There is no way to spin this, but they will keep trying.

[LiteKeeper]

The Holy Father (and the bishops in union with him) are our guarantee that the doctrines taught by the Catholic Church are the same doctrines taught by our Lord and His apostles.

Tell that to Galileo, and Luther, and Calvin, and many other godly theologians and preachers who disagree with the Roman Catholic Church, but agree with the Scriptures!

[kalee]

I fear the ABC’s idol is unity at all costs.

[B-Chan]

To paraphrase Old North State (above), "Wow, everybody was wrong for fifteen hundred years? Are we ever lucky this Calvin guy came along to straighten us out!" Calvin and Luther made popes of themselves — and the tradition continues right down to Cowan and all the rest. When you're your own pope the Bible means whatever you say it does.

As for Galiileo, he went to his grave a Catholic. Sorry!

[Mr. Lucky]

You don’t appear to know a whole lot about the theology of confessional Protestant churches, so it might be a good idea to post on other subjects.

[B-Chan]

Thanks for the advice, but I’m pretty sure I’m going to keep posting on this topic. Have a blessed Easter!

[r9etb]

Deceptive article. The author seems trying to leave the impression that Williams thinks “anti-gay” Christians are wrong. Homosexuality and Idol worship both lead to spiritual death.

That's true. OTOH, Williams is correct in saying that Romans strongly cautions Christians against self-righteousness, which is the same sin of which the Pharisees were guilty.

Yes, homosexual activity is sinful. But so are the things we do. For whatever reason, we cannot help sinning, and all sinfulness leads to spiritual death. Our only recourse is to confess, repent, and ask for His forgiveness again, and again, and again -- whether our sin is homosexual activity, or something else.

Look at Romans 1:26-32. It's a plain fact that there are those who wield Romans 1:26-27 like an axe. The problem is that they forget to see their (our) own failings within the rest of the passage. Romans is not about homosexuality, it is about the fact that all people sin in many different ways.

The greater sin of homosexual activists is to insist despite the clear meaning of Scripture, that their actions are "moral." And the greater sin of people like us is to forget to love the sinners as we bash them with Romans 1:26-27.

[r9etb]

There is absolutely no way you can read the Christian Bible and conclude that God does not condem homosexuality. Male homosexuality is condemned soundly in numberous passages. There is no way to spin this, but they will keep trying.

Ah, grasshopper -- but is homosexuality the only sin that God condemns? Jesus said to take the log out of our own eye first: even us heterosexuals face condemnation for our own sins.

This is not to excuse those who would attempt to obscure the sin of homosexual activity, but rather to point out that there are plenty of other sins, too.

St. John tells us plainly what's really important:

Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. (1 John 2:10-11)

The point is simply this: does our knowledge that homosexual activity is a sin, lead to a self-righteousness that causes us to hate the sinners, as well as the sin? It think the answer to that is, all too often, "yes."

[r9etb]

Exactly, it’s condemned over and over again in the Bible. If the Anglican Chruch ever hopes to regain its fromer glory, it won’t listen to this Williams person, he’s just another liberal Christian that twists the Bible PC.

Did you read the entire article?

[HamiltonJay]

Of course the bible points out all sort of sins, and all sorts of sexual morality.

And yes, the cry of hypocrisy will always be raised, at times legitimately, against those who point out the sins of others.

However, the bible is also quite clear that it is a christians duty to point out the sin of another they see sinning, if they do not know for a fact that that person has been informed that their actions are sinful. For they may not know their actions are sinful, and if you do not point it out to them, then their sins shall be upon you at the day of judgement.

The problem is that while adultery, fornicating, incest, etc are all sexual sins in the bible, I do not see adulterers or fornicators or incestuous persons in groups trying to argue the case their actions are not sinful. I don’t condemn the homosexual, we all are sinners, and we ALL have our tempatations and crosses to bare. We all succumb to sin from time to time, even the most pious among us.

There is however a large difference from occassionally falling to sin, and regretting and making every effort to not do so again (even if we do fail and do fall again) and not even making an effort, embrace your sin and try to declare it pious and normal.

The spin from those who embrace sinful behavior and try to pretend it is not so, and desire the rest of the world to accept their actions as less than the affront and abominations that they are always fall back on the drive through theology of “God is Love”.... so no matter what I do, its ok because hes love.

We are all children of God and God’s love is eternal, to falsely portray this as oh, do whatever, God loves you its ok.... is nothing more than feel goodism, fast food theology, and is not remotely based on scripture or the teachings of Christ.

God may love the rapist, because he is a human being and a child of God... but that does not mean God will welcome the unrepentant rapist into his eternal glory. Gods eternal love extends to all his children, that does not mean you may snub your nose at his word unrepentantly and expect your soul to know eternal happiness.

Mega Church, drive through theology, feel goodism is NOT remotely what the Bible tells us. Those that take millions to tell people “god wants you wealthy” are charletains. Those that water down the Bible to “God is Love” are schysters.

Yes, we are all sinners, however most do not embrace their sins try to say they aren’t and make no effort to stop sinning. To try to portray the unrepentant homosexual as pious and holy is like trying to portray the urepentant rapist as such. You may not just ask to be forgiven and then continue on your unholy path unabated making no effort to live the life God intends for you and expect salvation. That’s not the teachings of the Christian Bible at all.

While I agree no many should judge the place of anothers immortal soul.. as that is indeed the role of God, not man. And that is what “judge not lest ye be judged” talks about, the judgement of anothers immortal soul, not that man should not judge others for their actions on and in this world. You are free to do whatever you will, but to believe you should and will not be judged by others here is less than Christian is folly.