Posted on 04/16/2007 4:29:04 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
***... Mr. Giuliani maintains a big lead over his Republican rivals in the polls yet has all the wrong policy positions on social issues such as abortion and homosexual rights considered key to cultivating Christian conservatives. However, some evangelicals and pro-life Catholics seem willing to overlook his faults -- including his two divorces -- in the belief that he is the only Republican actually running who can defeat the Democratic nominee in 2008.
Still, Mr. Giuliani and conservative Christians "probably have irreconcilable differences on life and family and that kind of thing," said Mr. Falwell, adding, "I couldn't support him for president."
Nor is Mr. Dobson in Mr. Giuliani's cheering section.
"I do not believe that the current excitement over Giuliani will continue," Mr. Dobson told U.S. News & World Report.
Richard Land, president of the Religious and Ethics Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, takes a hard line against virtually all the major Republican candidates. He says he'd vote for Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, New York Democrat, over Mr. Giuliani if the 2008 presidential race came down to such a choice. And if Mr. Giuliani wins, "he'll do so without social conservatives," Mr. Land said. .....
(Excerpt) Read more at washtimes.com ...
I understand that Rudy Giuliani is not a friend of the conservative movement, and that his support from some of the people at DU should be a cause for concern.
If a candidate drives the moonbats crazy, then hey, you have something there!
If a candidate actually manages to draw support of the moonbats, then you might want to step back and look a little.
Dobson = Blowhard
No, Giussolini has more leftist views on the 2nd Amendment than Hitlery... they are both leftists...
BUT, he’s opened the door to the possibility that he’d take it national if the states didn’t subsudize it like he want’s.
How many times do we have to point out that your talking point here is no longer valid?
Rudy has said a strict constructionist could uphold Roe. His words, not mine.
So you are being dishonest yet again in trying to spin a claim that Rudy's own words have undone.
I agree with Land on this issue. McCain has too many stability problems for me. Nothing he said that was a direct quote said he would vote for Hillary.
Not everyone is either a uber-conservative whackjob, nor a moonbat commie whackjob. When the moonbats get their knickers knotted they cause the middleground to move away, also. It is the middleground who bring us defeat or victory.
Neither his Hillary, or John Kerry, or even Margeret Sanger (who Rudy praised as a great person).
He didn't make the law.
But he said he believes women SHOULD have the right to choose, and that Roe was a good law.
He has said he'd appoint Justices that could overturn Roe.
No, he did not. He's not said his judges would overturn Roe, he said he'd appoint "strict constructionists", which most people assume means people would would throw out Roe. But later when pressed to be honest, he had to admit that in HIS mind a strict constructionist could uphold Roe, which I think reveals the kind of "strict constructionist" he would be appointing. Makes sense because before he was running for President and trying to win the votes of the evangelicals he called Ruth Ginsberg the kind of judge he'd appoint. Then he dropped that, but now that his polls are up and he thinks he doesn't need the evangelicals (or that he has neutralised them) he's back to his old talk.
He has stated he hates abortion
Hillary says she hates abortion and wants them safe, legal, and rare. So does Planned Parenthood and NARAL, but not enough to not take millions of dollars for killing babies.
would counsel against it
What does that mean? He's going to set up a counselling center in the Oval Office? When did he ONCE as mayor give a speech telling women NOT to have abortions? Why didn't he even say one sentence about abortion being wrong when he spoke at NARAL praising them for their work keeping abortion legal? Why would he counsel against it if he doesn't think it's murder (and if he DOES think it's murder, how does a law-and-order candidate condone legalizing murder?)
and encourages adoption.
Along with 99.9% of the people living in the United States? He probably even encourages adoption by gay singles and couples.
You don't want a president, you want a dictator.
If I wanted a dictator, I'd be more favorably inclined to vote for Rudy Giuliani, who has shown streaks of dictatorial rule as Mayor. For example, he kicked Arafat out of a public building, calling it "his" building. When his police force was under attack, he leaked confidential information about a victim of a police assault to try to discredit him, in order to protect "his" administration. His actions were often capricious and self-centered. When Time magazine gave the police chief the credit deserved for taking a bite out of crime, Rudy fired him.
Heck, his finest hours as mayor have been when crisis has allowed him to operate under "martial law", such as on 9/11 when he was able to "dictate" to everybody what to do. Of course, eventually the rest of us got back to democracy, while Rudy tried to claim a 3-month "extension" of his mayorship.
Rudy thinks that liberty is giving in to authority. Rudy is an authoritarian. It worked well as Mayor because I guess NYCity needed a father-figure, a dictator, to get things turned around, assuming you believe he turned things around.
And they won't win as long as they keep trying the same old thing with new faces. The history of the last 40 years shows that real conservative Republicans win national level elections and half-hearted RINOs lose those elections.
I certainly hope it doesn't come to this in '08, but it looks at this point as though the liberal northeastern country club RINO faction of the party has been given new life by Giuliani. It would be very difficult and painful to suffer through another Democrat administration, but that may be necessary in order to reinforce the message that the RINOs still won't accept, namely, that they don't own the party or our votes. Open heart surgery is also difficult and painful, but it's sometimes necessary in order to save the life of the patient.
You are crazy if you think that Rudy will win Tennessee!!
Do tell, what did he mean by his remarks?
So Duncan Hunter would alienate the middle ground more than Giuliani?
“That post should be framed and I nominate you for FR Poster of the month.
Well, thank you, I don’t think I’ve ever had that honor! ;^)
I believe he already had a foot out the door
***...May 2, 2000 - ''The Vagina Monologues'' : "Mr. Giuliani's aides have said the mayor would not have been able to attend his wife's opening night performance May 30, which would have occurred on the same night as the state Republican convention, where Mr. Giuliani is expected to be designated as the party's Senate nominee.
''My wife is independent, she leads an independent life, so do I,'' the mayor said last month. ''I think those discussions will be private discussions about whether I do or don't'' attend. "...***
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***...May 10, 2000 | NEW YORK -- Mayor Rudy Giuliani said Wednesday that he plans to seek a formal separation from his wife of 16 years, Donna Hanover....***
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***...New York's mayor shacks up with a gay couple
It was a tabloid's dream story. New York City mayor Rudolph Giuliani, in the middle of a bitter public divorce from his wife, Donna Hanover, moved out of Gracie Mansion, where Hanover still lives, and into the posh upper east side apartment of his friend Howard Koeppel and Koeppers partner of 10 years, Mark Hsiao.
Throughout his mayoralty, Giuliani, though generally supportive of gay rights, has sparred with the city's large gay population on everything from the St. Patrick's Day parade to police brutality. But Giuliani has spoken appreciatively of Koeppel and Hsiao's support during his difficult time, in which he was also recovering from prostate cancer and preparing to leave office. Koeppel, 64, agreed to talk about living with the mayor from his Volkswagen showroom in Queens.
How did you get to know the mayor?
We've known each other for a dozen years now. I meet him during his campaign in '89, and we hit it off right away. In the car business you deal with thousands of people. You develop a pretty good perception of the difference between chicken salad and chickenshit. Rudy is the chicken salad. He respects you as a person and not as a member of a group whose vote he's seeking.
When did it dawn on him that you are gay?
To tell you the truth, we've never really discussed it on that level. He's just always known because we'd talk about Mark and our lives together. There's no way he could miss it. Mark and I double-dated with him and his wife, Donna, on New Year's Eve in '95 and '96. We spent the whole evening together, from dinner until 3 in the morning. It was as natural as if we had been an opposite-sex couple.
If the mayor is as comfortable with gay people as you say, why all the friction between the mayor and New York's gay community?
Rudy is a Republican in a gay environment. The Republican Party has earned a reputation for being antigay, and that reputation has rubbed off on him. The other thing people don't like is that he doesn't cater to minority groups, whether gays, Asians, or blacks. He does what's right, regardless. He's generally there with us on the issues.
What's your routine like, now that you have a roommate?
Before Rudy moved in, I didn't get to spend that much time with him. I'm on the invitation list, so I'd see him at Gracie Mansion and at other events. We'd go out to eat sometimes. But he's so bright and fascinating, I always wanted more. Now we can have breakfast together.
Why do straight people turn to their gay friends in times of crisis?
If I were living with a woman and had room for him, I would take him in. Our friendship is not about my being gay or Mark's being Asian or whatever. But it is true that I've never questioned him about his problems with Donna. It could be that after 30 years together it just wasn't working and he decided to end the relationship. It had nothing to do with meeting another woman. I know he's been a good father to Andrew, taking him to baseball games and playing golf. So I don't judge him. The other thing is that he knows that Mark and I are happy people and that we live comfortable lives together. It makes him happy to be around happy people.
Given the turmoil of his divorce, do you have second thoughts about same-sex marriage?
Well, it is true that with domestic partnership, breaking up is a lot simpler. Six months, and it's over. But if they would pass a law that marriage would become legal between same-sex couples, I would be the first in line. And if Rudy were still mayor, I know he'd perform the civil ceremony for me.
How does he feel about your talking to the press about your domestic arrangement?
He's fine with it. I think it's been good for his image, frankly. So many people, gay and straight, have come up to me and said, "You know, the mayor is a really good guy after all."
Is the mayor a good houseguest?
Yes. He even makes his own bed....***
bttt
Rick Santorum backed Arlen Spector over Toomey. He then started showing up on Imus’s show and pushing for big-government involvement in several issues. He also tried to squash private enterprise in weather data use. The conservatives (wrongly I believe) abandoned him, and his strong support for the Iraq war buried him in a year of anti-war sentiment he couldn’t overcome.
He also was incorrectly seen as linked to the k-street, jack Abramoff stuff, and labeled as “scandalous” because of questions about where he lived and taking tax money for schooling.
George Allen stopped talking fiscal and social conservatism, and spent his campaign attacking people for asking about his jewish heritage, making up names for the opposition campaign workers, and attacking his opponent for writing fiction books. If you can find a conservative viewpoint in any of that, let me know, because I’m still looking for the good conservative I elected in 2000.
In other words, Allen ran away from what he was, and I blame him (although a lot of the blame is in his campaign manager, who advised him to take this ill-conceived tact in the race).
Coupled with a democrat who pretended to be a conservative, and a strong anti-iraq war sentiment, Allen still came within 5,000 votes of winning re-election, hardly a glaring repudiation of “conservativism”.
In the end, every time Allen opened his mouth to attack James Webb for writing books about war, or saying the “n-word”, another block of veterans threw up their hands and dropped out, and another block of conservatives abandoned him.
The last straw I think was his voting for the gambling ban. Allen was supposed to be a “libertarian-conservative”, which is actually a well-received position in Virginia, and his vote on that issue made a lot of people scratch their heads.
When you lose by a swing of 5000 votes, you can’t afford to have alienated thousands of military voters by attacking a military man for writing racy, “racist” books about war and the military. It just made the military realise Allen didn’t understand them. These were books that I didn’t think were good, but were well-praised by military readers (McCain had an endorsement of one of the books Allen attacked).
Allen was also torn down for statements he may or may not have made 30 years ago, that he couldn’t defend or discuss rationally. Those statements had nothing to do with his conservatism, and in fact undermined his conservative credentials, as did other aspects of his private life that made him “popular” but had nothing to do with conservative values.
See, this is why people are getting tired of the “pro-Rudy” crowd.
I come into a thread, and post a comment disagreeing with Land about voting for Hillary instead of Rudy, noting that Hillary is more liberal than Rudy.
And you attack me because, in that comment, I point out the fact that Hillary has more experience than Rudy, suggesting that my saying so means I don’t understand what a liberal Hillary is, even though I SAID she was more liberal than rudy in the very comment you are referencing.
It’s like you went out of your way to mis-characterize my comment just so you could attack me for an ignorance that is in your own mind.
I havent seen anyone here advocate that so-cons "get out of the party" nor have I heard any of the candidates so advocate. I have heard Rudy say that making abortion the party litmus test is a bad idea. That hardly meets your description.
Let’s see how it works out for you not having us conservatives in the republican party—you hypocritical liberals.
So IOW, anyone who isnt a so-con is a liberal? That's absurd and you know it. If there weren't different types of conservatism (fiscal, natl defense, etc), you wouldn't need to call your brand "social conservatism."
Yes and it would go back to the states.
States could still legislate and women could still choose.
How hard is that to see?
Does Rudy have to draw maps?
Do you want lies and flip-flops?
Your words:
.............Hillary does of course have much more experience with the issues that effect this country, having sat in the White house for 8 years and having served in a federal legislature for another 7 years. That gives here a much broader understanding of the concerns of the world than a guy who was nothing more than mayor of a single city.
But experience isn’t everything, and for Land, who certainly is voting morals, the only morals Hillary has over Rudy is that Hillary never got divorced, even when her husband cheated on her. For whatever reason, she did keep her vow to stay married.
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