The fires of Hell are real and eternal, Pope warns

The Times (UK) ^ | March 27, 2007 | Richard Owen

[DreamsofPolycarp]

I could go with that. Look, I don't mind a little barbequeing of such lights as Pol Pot, Adolph, etc. for a reasonable length of time - a century, tops. But FOREVER?? Not merciful and loving.

See post 400. Same issues.

[Aquinasfan]

You're sidestepping his point. Do all Jews, Hindus, Muslims, followers of all eastern religions, tribesman in Africa, Central and South America, Eskimos, South Pacific Islanders...not to mention the millions and millions of people who died before Jesus was born, do they ALL go to hell because they haven't or even had the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior?

By answering the question directly? I guess you didn't follow the link, so I'll cut and paste it for you.

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

I don't know how to make my (the Church's) answer any clearer.

[PigRigger]

You've asked me on several occasions whether I think those who don't accept Christ will "suffer in eternal torment?".

I've told you quite clearly that I have no idea what God's judgment will be....it will be His and His alone...

I believe we are all condemned due to our sinful nature....but I will not tell you what the penalty will be....only God knows...

It is up to you to decide which path you take....I believe, for those who accept God's grace, we are sparred this ultimate judgment due to Christ's sacrifice...that simple.

Christ made it very clear we, as humans, will never be able to understand God and the reality that surrounds him....we are like children in that respect....so I do not pretend to know what He will do at that time when we are called before him for judgement....I will rely on Christ to intervene on my behalf...that is what I beleive...that is my faith.

You have a choice....either believe Christ is the true and living God that secured salvation.....or don't.

My personal belief of what eternal suffering is irrelevant to this conversation....However, the worst "hell" that could fall upon me would be a complete and eternal separation from God....without him I would lose all hope...despair and misery would be my reality....I would rather have my entire existence, my soul, be destroyed than exist like that....

That would be my personal hell....is that what awaits all those who knowingly turn from God....I honestly can say I don't know....

Now, if you believe we are all condemned as our default setting, and the Khmer victims were not Christian - then you must believe they're condemned. How can you maintain otherwise?

As my statements indicate above....we are all condemend...not one of us, based on our own merits, is worthy of salvation without Christ...He is our redeemer and spares us from the final judgment...it is given to us freely through God's grace...

When accepting Christ as our Savior, we become one with Him...one with God....

For those who do not accept Christ, they are condemned to face God's judgment...they will be held accountable for their actions accoridng to God's law....their fate will be determined by God...whatever that may be....

[Aquinasfan]

I thought the NT taught that everyone, no matter how good they tried to be, was a sinner headed for Hell - unless they accepted Jesus. Does it say otherwise?

It doesn't say either explicitly. There are many Scriptural passages regarding salvation that have to be synthesized. I posted the position of the Catholic Church above, which is a synthesis of Scripture and Tradition.

The Church distinguishes between explicit and implicit faith. A non-Catholic who serves Truth (God) to the best of his ability, without accepting Christ explicitly, through no fault of his own (ignorance or poor teaching regarding Jesus), may be saved (but his salvation would be through Christ). This would represent implicit faith.

The position you're referring to sounds Fundamentalist, but I'll let them speak for themselves.

Here are some important, relevant Scriptures:

John 15

5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. 9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command.

James 2

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

John 3

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

Matthew 7:21

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

John 6

53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Acts 17:23

For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.

There are many others, but these are some of the more difficult passages.

[DreamsofPolycarp]

Aquinasfan;kenH My perspective as a reformed Protestant (not a Roman Catholic) is similar. We believe that there is no salvation outside Christ, and no ORDINARY salvation outside his Church, which we would define more broadly than the church of Rome. They believe themselves to be the one true church, and there seems to be a variety of beliefs regarding the Eastern Orthodox and Protestants and others. Some teach that we are a part of the true church, only schizmatics, kind of the way China insists that Taiwan is a part of Mainland China but just in rebellion. Some Roman Catholics have taught we are outside the Church itself and headed for hell (Canons of Trent seem to indicate this).

Protestants have had issues of exclusivity, as well, depending on who you talk to. Someone like myself says that entrance into the visible church comes from a public profession of faith, baptism, and submission to a local church of elders and/or deacons. This is the ordinary and expected path of evidence of salvation (Catholics put more emphasis on the virtue of the Church itself and tend to stress that the actual inclusion into the church has saving merit, if I understand them correctly. Protestants, including myself, disagree).

We do not know the EXACT final state of those dying in ignorance of the gospel, not how God will mete out Justice. He will be fair. Men will be judged BY HOW THEY RESPONDED TO THE KNOWLEDGE THEY HAVE, and the Bible is replete with two teachings:

1) Men know about God's power, justice, and character from nature and their own interactions with men
2) Men universally hate what knowledge they do have, suppress the knowledge they do have, preferring to believe lies rather than face their won cosmic vulnerability in light of future justice

Therfore, ALL men are both in need of the mercy of God and in rebellion against it.

The unspoken premise that continually recirculates and forms an undertone in your questions on this issue is that God is "unfair" in judging men. The plain truth of the Scriptures is that God owes sinful humanity nothing. We are cosmic rebels who defy Him and continually rebel against the knowledge we DO have,and He would be just, righteous, and good to permit all of humanity to pass into eternity validating our choice to reject Him. He did not send Christ to die because He OWED it to us. Had Christ died for only one person, and no offer of salvation was made to anyone else, it would be just, or "fair." You cannot make God to be in your debt.

The beautiful thing about the gospel is that God's JUSTICE is satisfied in that sins punishment is complete. God's good, proper, fair, and right fury at rebellion fell, but it fell on Christ. The penalty for universal treason is paid. It is also MERCIFUL in that it allows men a way of escape.

It is my experience that when this concept is an object of fixation for people, it is always because they have a low view of eternal cosmic treason, a VERY low view of the inherent majesty, worth and what the ancients called the "holiness" of God, and a rather rosy view of their own relative worthiness. Couple that with the universal desire to condemn God if need be to justify ourselves, and you have a repetitive complaint about the "fairness" of God in some abstraction, which provides me a way of escape, or, as Paul says "how then can God judge the world" (assuming He is "unjust".... from Romans 9)

[Tokra]

That answer is unbiblical. Sorry, but it just is. You can no more "atone for your sin" than you can sprout wings and fly to Mars for the weekend. Salvation is from God alone, and he doesn't need you or me screwing it all up with our "atoning."

That is your opinion, and of course you are entitled to it. But please explain to me the Biblical references (Paul)to "praying for the dead"? Why would anyone need to pray for the dead if they went straight to heaven or hell?

The concept of Purgatory has been around as long as Christianity. It has it's basis in Hebrew theology and was taught by the Church as early as 150 A.D.

It was 1500 years later that the Protestants decided that there was no purgatory.

We'll all find out one day - won't we?

[Tokra]

I'm not sure why you would hope I'm right. Doesn't your Bible say that that is what happens? If God tortures non-Christian people forever, then I would think it would be the right thing to do - at least from a Bible-believing Christian's point of view.

You must have me confused with someone else - I am no "take the bible literally bible-thumper" by any means.

[DreamsofPolycarp]

That is your opinion, and of course you are entitled to it.

Thank you, but the issue is rather whether or not my opinion is well grounded.

But please explain to me the Biblical references (Paul)to "praying for the dead"?

Sure.... there ain't no such animal. No passages exist the refer to Palul "praying for the dead." none.

I have addressed this question before. My problem with purgatory is NOT the idea of purgation/purification from the presence and influences of sin. Therefore, I do not categorically reject the idea of a "purgatory." Of course we all believe that must happen at death to be in the presence of a holy God, so that the totality of our being "catches up" with our federal/declarative state. Otherwise we would be unfit for the presence of God, and He could not bear us. Also, I don't have a problem with the concept of a "progressive" idea of purification. Time will be no more and the concept of a linear temporal dimension may "fit" better. Who knows and to be frank, who cares? Certainly not I, and if you want to call this purification "purgatory" seeing as how the scriptures do seem to indicate that some on that day "will suffer loss" and that there is a system of rewards for faithfulness -- implying some sense of deprivation, we can walk together here.

My problem is with the WHOLLY unbiblical and antigospel notion that our own suffering somehow atones for, or covers our sin. Again, this is blasphemous, as it strikes at the very heart of the gospel. Men cannot save themselves. God alone saves. Christ alone in his death atones for sin, and again, you can no more atone for your sins that you can sprout wings and fly to Mars. This is, if I understand you correctly, and I may not, VERY serious and strikes at the heart of the gospel itself. Possibly you need to correct my misunderstanding of your teaching on the subject?

[Tokra]

The scripture I was referring to is 2 Timothy 1:18. Protestants say it doesn't mean Paul was praying for a dead man - Catholics say it does.

Purgatory does not mean that mankind can redeem himself - only Jesus can do that.

I know Protestants insist that faith ALONE is what will save us - but that is not what scripture says:

"faith without works is dead" (James 2:20)

God "will render to every man according to his deeds" (Romans 2:6).

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works ... and they were judged every man according to their works." (Revelation 20:12, 13)

"For we [believers] must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10)

Here are several scriptures that tell us we will be judged by "our works".

Of course anyone can pick and choose which scriptures they want to ignore - but if you believe the bible means what it says - then it means we will be judged by our works.

1Corinthians 13:13 "There are three things that will endure – faith, hope, and love – and the greatest of these is love."

Note - Paul does not say faith is the greatest - but love is.

None of us can judge what exactly the bible means. For every verse that proves one person's point - there is another verse which proves someone elses. Who's to say which person is right? We will all find out in the end.

[DreamsofPolycarp]

No passages exist the refer to Palul "praying for the dead."

ahhh.. Palul, yes, the famous Muslim apostle.

of course I meant "Paul" but I didn't want to advertise that I am sometimes an idiot who can neither type nor spell.

[DreamsofPolycarp]

2 Timothy 1:18. Protestants say it doesn't mean Paul was praying for a dead man - Catholics say it does. ok. any particular REASON that u would posit such a thing? I see nothing to indicate that, but again, there may be something I missed. I see no reason to assume he is dead. It is true that he is referred to in third person, but it is also true that he had been in Rome and visited Paul (next verse). I see nothing from the text to indicate that he is dead. Do you? Even IF Paul was praying for the dead, there is no reason to assume that this was for forgiveness of sins committed in this life. As for judgment by works, I certainly believe in that. I believe that when the curtains are pulled back, and the thoughts and intents of the heart are combined with the activities of men, our deeds (in their totality) will make it obvious who was regenerate and trusting in Christ, and who seeks to save himself. Judged by our works, saved by our faith. No problem at all with that. Faith ALONE saves us, but that faith is never ALONE. It always produces good works, which spring from saving faith. Without those works, it is dead (or not real faith). Again, if you trust in your obedience to God, you will be damned, for the simple reason that you and I are NOT obedient to God, never have been, and never in this life will be. Our best motives and activities are coated and infused(!) with pride, selfishness, sin. However, the final day WILL show that these works have proceeded from a heart that says "I wish I were better, but what I have, I give here as an offering of thanks." To infer from those works that they play a part in making you acceptable to God is rubbish.

Again, I may be misunderstanding what you say, but it sounds like you are teaching that men's works help save them. If this is true, you should go the whole distance like the canon 12 of trent and declare that protestants are guilty of teaching a false gospel, and thus are damned.

Is that what you are saying?

[mugs99]

Jesus didn't speak English....He didn't say "immortal worms". He was talking about the maggots that fed on corpses in the dump.

The King James Bible mistranslates many Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic texts.

[DreamsofPolycarp]

In scrolling posts, I saw this one, and marked it for future reference:

Sounds like most men should be cutting off their penis's.

Funny story from Martin Luther. As you know, he was a celibate monk for some time and then married Katherin von Bora, who had been a nun. They produced a number of children. Luther's students lived with his family at times, and one of them began transcribing mealtime conversations, recorded as "Table Talk." Luther would talk about various topics, but one of the really funny ones (there were several) was about eunuchs, who, taking the passage about cutting off hands, literally emasculated themselves (Origen was one who did so, and Melancthon considered it....., Luther encouraged him not to). Luther broke up the table one evening when he declared "I don't understand eunuchs, who cut off their own balls. Since marriage, I wish I could sew another pair on!" to which KvB is reported to have said "things were sometimes better back in the nunnery."

[DreamsofPolycarp]

opou o skwlhx autwn ou teleuta literally means "where the worms go on forever" Not immortal worms, but then again, the KJV says nothing about immortal worms. It just says they go on forever, which could mean that the corpses have continual maggots.
This is not a "mistranslation" at all.

[Bob J]

HA!

[mugs99]

That's the Greek translation of Hebrew text. Mark 9 is from the Torah and the Torah is not Written in Greek. The fire worms do go on forever. They appear like magic and every dump has them.

If the Greek "Gehenna" meant Hell it would read Hades.
I don't know why any of this matters...neither sounds like a place I'd want to be!

[chickenNdumplings]

Only a god with an ego could belive in Hell.

Actually it's the other way round. God has given us free will. That means we can choose to reject Him. Those who choose to reject Him, who choose to be separated from him, get their wish. Hell is separation from God.

[Marysecretary]

I don't know anything about his affection for Art Bell, but the book would scare the hell out of anyone who may be on his or her way there. It has great value.

[Marysecretary]

No, I'm 'good' because God wants me to follow Him. I love Him so much that I want to obey Him and please Him as much as it's in my power to do so. I've never been afraid of hell for some reason, perhaps because I knew I'd never end up there, but I do worry about others I know (and even those I don't know) who may end up there for all of eternity because of their refusal to receive Jesus Christ into their lives.

[hgro]

Don't get worried folks, Hell is full of priests so you will have to go to Heaven.