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To: DreamsofPolycarp
The scripture I was referring to is 2 Timothy 1:18. Protestants say it doesn't mean Paul was praying for a dead man - Catholics say it does.

Purgatory does not mean that mankind can redeem himself - only Jesus can do that.

I know Protestants insist that faith ALONE is what will save us - but that is not what scripture says:

"faith without works is dead" (James 2:20)

God "will render to every man according to his deeds" (Romans 2:6).

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works ... and they were judged every man according to their works." (Revelation 20:12, 13)

"For we [believers] must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10)

Here are several scriptures that tell us we will be judged by "our works".

Of course anyone can pick and choose which scriptures they want to ignore - but if you believe the bible means what it says - then it means we will be judged by our works.


1Corinthians 13:13 "There are three things that will endure – faith, hope, and love – and the greatest of these is love."

Note - Paul does not say faith is the greatest - but love is.

None of us can judge what exactly the bible means. For every verse that proves one person's point - there is another verse which proves someone elses. Who's to say which person is right? We will all find out in the end.

409 posted on 03/30/2007 8:36:55 AM PDT by Tokra (I think I'll retire to Bedlam.)
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To: Tokra
2 Timothy 1:18. Protestants say it doesn't mean Paul was praying for a dead man - Catholics say it does. ok. any particular REASON that u would posit such a thing? I see nothing to indicate that, but again, there may be something I missed. I see no reason to assume he is dead. It is true that he is referred to in third person, but it is also true that he had been in Rome and visited Paul (next verse). I see nothing from the text to indicate that he is dead. Do you? Even IF Paul was praying for the dead, there is no reason to assume that this was for forgiveness of sins committed in this life. As for judgment by works, I certainly believe in that. I believe that when the curtains are pulled back, and the thoughts and intents of the heart are combined with the activities of men, our deeds (in their totality) will make it obvious who was regenerate and trusting in Christ, and who seeks to save himself. Judged by our works, saved by our faith. No problem at all with that. Faith ALONE saves us, but that faith is never ALONE. It always produces good works, which spring from saving faith. Without those works, it is dead (or not real faith). Again, if you trust in your obedience to God, you will be damned, for the simple reason that you and I are NOT obedient to God, never have been, and never in this life will be. Our best motives and activities are coated and infused(!) with pride, selfishness, sin. However, the final day WILL show that these works have proceeded from a heart that says "I wish I were better, but what I have, I give here as an offering of thanks." To infer from those works that they play a part in making you acceptable to God is rubbish.

Again, I may be misunderstanding what you say, but it sounds like you are teaching that men's works help save them. If this is true, you should go the whole distance like the canon 12 of trent and declare that protestants are guilty of teaching a false gospel, and thus are damned.

Is that what you are saying?

411 posted on 03/30/2007 9:17:23 AM PDT by DreamsofPolycarp (Ron Paul in '08)
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