[Idaho gun shop] Red's loses its gun license

magicvalley.com/Times-News (Idaho) ^ | 3/14/07 | Cassidy Friedman

[Atlas Sneezed]

I wonder how many forms and bureaucratic errors the geniuses at the BATFE have made over the years? Maybe THEIR license should be revoked!

Also, I'm not a dealer, but I'd like to consider how the following admissions MIGHT truthfully be reworded by someone who was not calculating to make the shop look incompetent, dangerous, and evil.

"Red's manager, Ryan Horsley, admits when the business sold guns it sometimes left blank required parts of a gun purchase form, omitted a background check on a special order, failed to log multiple handgun sales to the same customer in five working days, did not keep track of guns returned to manufacturers, threw away denied applications dealers are required to keep for 20 years and failed to post a gun safety sign and pamphlets."

Here's a scenario that might actually be true:
Red's manager, Ryan Horsley, admits when the business sold guns, a couple times over the years and tens of thousands of sales, an employee forgot to make sure the customer filled in his county of residence along with mailing address. Once, when a customer made a special order, a background check on the old customer who had passed many such checks done by the shop was forgotten, because the new employee who handled the pick-up thought that the check had been done when the order was placed and advance payment made. Another time, all the proper background checks were done for a good customer who bought more than 5 pistols for his collection, but the clerk forgot the extra form that has to be filed when more than 5 are bought in a short period. Some unsold guns were returned to the manufacturer, to keep defective guns off the street, but they needed to look through shipping records to see which ones they sent back when their inventory did not agree at the end of the year. Also, an employee thinking that they were like the other applications forms accidentally threw away denied application forms. The shop didn't have all the latest ATF brochures and pamphlet in their shop for everyone to ignore.

[NorthFlaRebel]

Like it or not, the government decided that only people actually operating a business would be elligible for a Federal Firearms dealers license from that point on. Your other examples are apples and oranges as the feds do not regulate Mary Kay cosmetics and vacuum cleaer salesmen. You and I can disagree with the current gun laws and that decision by the BATF to limit FFL's to actual businesses, but none the less, they are laws.

Look, if you were to hand me a petition that says, "Should 99% of existing gun laws be abolished?", I'd sign it. But the current laws are reality and it is more rare than some would like to believe that the BATF is revoking a dealer's license over mere technicalities.

[Charlespg]

The more the ATF does the more I pray to see the total destruction of this Jack booted THUG organization.

Burn All Toddlers First

[DocH]

Nice mouth! you kiss your mamma with that filthy thing?

And just what does the "effed", in your post "Sounds like Ryan Effed up" mean?

Advice for your life mylife:

It is better to have people THINK you're an idiot, than to open your mouth (or type some words) and remove all doubt.

[Logophile]

See Article 8 of the US Constitution, "The Congress shall have the power to... regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;"

Ah yes, the Commerce Clause. I thought that might be what you had in mind.

Since the 1930s, the Commerce Clause has been a favorite of Democrats and Leftists in this country. They have used it to justify the expansion of the power and reach of the Federal government into all areas of life.

Setting aside the question of whether the gun store owner was engaged in "interstate commerce", do you see any limit on power of Congress under the Commerce Clause?

[mylife]

Knock off the big bad guy act

[ZULU]

Look at comments 2 and 3.

As long as Americans are stupid enough to allow these jack-booted thugs to infringe a basic constitutional and human right over governmental trivia, our rights will continue to be eroded.

Muchas Gracias Senior Gonzales!!! I hope the Dems fry your butt!!!

[Exton1]

Sig Hile, What you don’t understand is that is the way the Feds will take away our rights. You can own a gun, you just will not be able to buy one ANYWHERE. This is happening ALL over. The Feds are busting gun dealers on minor infractions. If you can’t ban guns outright you just make it too difficult to purchase one. So what will happen is that guns will disappear though attrition.

[NorthFlaRebel]

They should NOT be held accountable, especially to the point of LOSING their business, for mere TECHNICAL infractions, of highly convoluted government-mandated red-tape, committed by their employees.

The employees ARE the business. Your logic is odd, to say the least. That's like saying "Publix" should not be fined for OSHA violations because the employees committed the violations or that "Mike's Bar" shouldn't lose its liquor license because Sam the bartender or Sally the waitress served underage patrons.

Also, I don't find throwing away denied applications and not performing background checks to be technical infractions caused by "highly convoluted government- mandated red tape". These two regulations are pretty much the the most important ones.

[SJackson]

You have any proof for your claim that there has been a 90% reduction in gun dealers in the past 15 years?

Below. A large number of these licenses were individuals selling an occasional gun from home or at shows, not commercial enterprises.

IF this guy was omitting background checks for "special" cases, and not reporting multiple handgun sales, I'm glad there's one less. These are the abuses that lead to more regulation.

----------------

http://www.vpc.org/press/0603dealers.htm

 

Number of Gun Dealers in U.S. Drops Almost 80 Percent—From 245,628 to 54,902—Since 1994, New Violence Policy Center (VPC) Report Reveals

America Once Had More Gun Dealers Than Gas Stations, Now Only Five States Do: Alaska, Idaho, Montana, Oregon, and Wyoming

WASHINGTON, DC—The number of gun dealers in America has dropped by 190,726 since 1994 according to a new study released today by the Violence Policy Center (VPC). The study (see http://www.vpc.org/studies/dealers.pdf) found that the number of Type 1 Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs) plummeted 78 percent: from 245,628 in 1994 to 54,902 in 2005. (The Type 1 FFL is the basic federal license required to sell guns in America.)

The 1992 VPC publication More Gun Dealers Than Gas Stations first focused national attention on abuses by FFL holders and revealed that at the time of its release the number of Americans who possessed the Type 1 FFL outnumbered gas stations 245,000 to 210,000. The bulk of the licenses were held by illegitimate "kitchen-table" dealers who operated out of their homes or offices, an unknown percentage of which were actively involved in criminal gun trafficking. As the result of policy recommendations contained in the study that were implemented under the Clinton Administration, today only five states have more gun dealers than gas stations (see chart below). The full study contains information for all 50 states as well as policy recommendations.

State	Number of Gun Dealers	Number of Gas Stations	State	Number of Gun Dealers	Number of Gas Stations
Alaska	844	229	Oregon	1,479	1,146
Idaho	682	663	Wyoming	550	401
Montana	1,017	597	U.S. Total	54,902	121,363

California posted the largest decrease in the number of gun dealers of any state in the nation, dropping from 20,148 in 1994 to 2,438 in 2005—a drop of 88 percent.

VPC Policy Analyst Marty Langley states, "The sharp drop in gun dealers is one of the most important—and little noticed—victories in the effort to reduce firearms violence in America. The dramatic drop in dealers aids not only federal law enforcement, but cities and states as they continue their efforts to reduce illegal firearms trafficking and firearms violence."

[Leatherneck_MT]

"Burn All Toddlers First"

Sure seems that way.

[ozzymandus]

Always eager to take the ATF's side, eh? Do you think this guy was arming terrorists and bank robbers?

[mysterio]

Sounds to me like this guy needed to lose his dealer's license if he in fact violated all of these federal regulations and laws.

The federal regulations and laws are the violations. The language "shall not be infringed" is very clear in the Second Amendment.

[SJackson]

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	Red's Trading Post is currently under fire from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). On March 5th our license to aquire firearms was revoked and is pending appeal in federal court. In the meantime we are still able to continue selling as we always have.     A 2004 audit by the ATF claims to have uncovered several minor clerical errors. Out of nearly10,000 firearms transfered between 1996 and 2004, the alleged error rate found was not even a full percentage point. There were no missing firearms, and no willfull illegal acts.      This is not just happening to us though and is becoming a common trend throughout the United States; the problem is with the ATF's liberal interpretation of the word “willful”. The word “willful” was added by Ronald Reagan and Congress to protect FFL (Federal Firearms License) dealers against the ATF. Why would we honestly put our license, reputation and over 70 years in business in Jeopardy? We would never condone of illegal activity, we have always gone above and beyond what is asked of us and will continue to do so. Our family takes pride in our business and community. We will continue to fight this and received a lot of phone calls and e-mails from other dealers that are battling the same situation. The number of FFL's in this country are on a sharp decline. I thank our friends, supporters and customers for their continued support and assure everyone that we will continue to fight this.	Press
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Contact Your Congressman		KMVT
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More Coming soon		We'd like to point out a few of the ATF's more shining Moments.
Current Status		ATF Erred At Gun Shows The Wounds of Waco Fatal Raid in Arkansas Store owner killed in raid ATF Raids Museum
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©2002 • Red's Trading Post Inc.
215 Shoshone St. S. · Twin Falls, ID. 83301
Phone: 208.733.3546 · Fax: 208.734.2793
o

 

[spunkets]

"Since the 1930s, the Commerce Clause has been a favorite of Democrats and Leftists in this country. They have used it to justify the expansion of the power and reach of the Federal government into all areas of life."

Explain how the paperwork involved is onerous, and leftist.

"Setting aside the question of whether the gun store owner was engaged in "interstate commerce", do you see any limit on power of Congress under the Commerce Clause?"

There is no limit given in the Constitution. The founder's assumed commerce would be regulated to flourish, not regulated out of existence, so no limit was given. As Franklin said at the closing of the Convention, that the Constitution wasn't perfect, it was left up to the future what folks would make of it.

[spunkets]

"Once, when a customer made a special order, a background check on the old customer who had passed many such checks done by the shop was forgotten, because the new employee who handled the pick-up thought"

There's a box on the form to be filled in with the background check number. These forms are simple.

"an employee forgot to make sure the customer filled in his county of residence along with mailing address."

The employee should go over the form, to make sure it's filled out right. Horsley should have checked that the forms were also. It's not as if he had to count thousands of grains of sand every night.

[Billthedrill]

A BTT and many thanks. Signed and bumped.

[Dead Corpse]

The founder's assumed commerce would be regulated to flourish, not regulated out of existence...

In case you aren't keeping score, mark Red's in the "out of existence" column.

Anytime a bureaucrat is given the kinds of power the BATFE has, it will be abused. Red's is just one in a long line of dealers being rail-roaded out of the industry by crap like this.

[spunkets]

"Anytime a bureaucrat is given the kinds of power the BATFE has, it will be abused. Red's is just one in a long line of dealers being rail-roaded out of the industry by crap like this."

I don't think he's being railroaded out of existence. I think Horsley was unreasonable and sloppy at least. He already had at least one warning, which should have woke him up. It didn't and his op continued to be sloppy.

from the article: "Ryan Horsley said Red's was found responsible of several violations in an earlier audit."

The dealers I know don't have these problems, even one with filing system, that amounted to storing their forms at the point in the store where they were filled out and dropped right there, then later fell into a box, into a corner, or stuck to the bottom of a sandwich wrapper. The sales volume, was on the order of this guy's.

[Dead Corpse]

I think Horsley was unreasonable and sloppy at least.

6-7 errors out of 10000? Doesn't sound sloppy to me. If government kept track of our tax money like that, we'd be a lot better off...

Considering most of these arbitrary BATFE infringements shouldn't even exist, don't be too happy about this guys business going down the tubes.