Romney says government was wrong in Schiavo case

St. Petersburg Times ^ | March 11, 2007 | Adam C. Smith

[EternalVigilance]

TAMPA -- He's campaigning hard for support from Republican social conservatives, but presidential candidate Mitt Romney said Saturday he disagreed with the government's intervention in the Terri Schiavo case.

"I think it's probably best to leave these kinds of matters in the hands of the courts," Romney said in a television interview airing today.

[Zeon Cowboy]

Maybe he's right. They shouldn't have bothered to get involved because they didn't really do a damn thing to save her anyway.

[8mmMauser]

We know that a over a year later, after prolonged immobility and the bone changes that causes, Terri Schiavo had an abnormal bone scan.

I notice you keep returning to Terri's immobility in the year following the incident. It is my understanding she got therapy, range of motion, and lots of attention that first year. You may find out more from Jackie Rhodes and others how she was doing that first year, but it was while Michael was building up for his malpractice suit and it was still in his interest to help her rehabilitate. I do not know of many in Terri's case who are dumped and left immobile the first year. Do you?

In this case, as of August of that year her parents and family were with her constantly even bringing her home for rehabilitation and therapy and even make wheelchair visits to the mall. They were grateful she was on the road to recovery, although at the time, they didn't have the resources they would have wished. Doesn't sound like immobile to me.

Oh, yes, one other thing... We provided range of motion to our own son for twenty six years, so are quite aware of the effects you address. We also lived through fractures he suffered while in care of the doctors and medical staff, his bones of course fragile after years and years of limited motion. Sorry if I sound skeptical, but we kept our son alive all those years in spite of doctors, not because of them. He wouldn't have lasted six months had we heeded them.

Here is a picture of Terri after that year and before Mikey treated her to high neglect. Does she look like she had been immobile for a year?

[T'wit]

>> the only information about her bones immediately after the cardiac arrest was information from her intial hospitalization.

I appreciate your faith in this, but there isn't any information. It's not available. It can't be checked. It can't be evaluated. What kind of "science" is it where you can't even look at the results?

I am willing to take Dr. Thogmartin's word for it that there were n x-rays taken many years ago. But rattling off a list of tests is useless. We can talk all day long about what they should have showed, but it doesn't get us one inch closer to knowing what they actually did show. Has he himself even seen them? We don't know (and I beg leave to doubt it). Will he make them public so that we can be sure what Terri's condition was? He won't.

[T'wit]

>> It is my understanding she got therapy, range of motion, and lots of attention that first year.

Yes, she did. It was those very efforts at therapy that raised the question why they were so painful to Terri. This led to the bone scan and Dr. Walker's evaluation: "The patient has a history of trauma."

Then... the bone scan disappeared for ten years. It refuted the "bulimia" theory of Terri's "collapse" (a theory dreamed up by a trial lawyer), so it would immediately have exonerated the doctors Michael fraudulently sued for malpractice in 1992. Big "surprise" the defense attorneys never got to see it, eh?

In my (rare) cynical moments, I sometimes fancy there is a nefarious reason we never see all these other alleged documents that allegedly show Terri suffered no trauma. But then I get back to reality and restore my faith that she went from sleeping in bed to lifeless on the hallway floor, snap, just like that, for no reason. I mean, that's what Michael said. Who could doubt him?

[8mmMauser]

This is why by experience we are manytimes dismayed at doctors. From a layperson perspective, an overview, it looks as obvious as it is to notice Mickey Mouse at Disneyland is not a real rodent. We have been dismayed at the myopia brought about by professional microscopic views, by their becoming so engrossed technically in the subject whether it be our son or Terri, they are unable to see the obvious right in front of them.

Meanwhile, they run tests on Mickey Mouse to determine medically if he is truly a rodent. Depending on methodology, it may even prove inconclusive.

You capture what I hope to illustrate in your observation:

>>But then I get back to reality and restore my faith that she went from sleeping in bed to lifeless on the hallway floor, snap, just like that, for no reason.

[bjs1779]

Dr. Walker very firmly denied it, and gave good reasons. And keep in mind that one of those rehab doctors is the one who ordered the scan -- for trauma.

If I were that rehap doctor, and it turns out my patient ended up with a broken back on my watch, I would tend to blame it on something else, too. Both parties, Michael and the hospital, probably had their worries over that bone scan. After all, as you say, it did disappear.

[retMD]

I believe you are correct that she got therapy, but even the best therapy isn't the equivalent of normal spontaneous motion. Again, from the autopsy report: "As far back as 1991, Mrs. Schiavo was noted to have osteoporosis".

As for using the picture as proof, it gives me little information. She is wearing loose clothes, so I can't see the musculature, which might reflect immobility or not. Obviously, I can't tell anything about the bones from a picture in any case.

I am sorry to hear about your son and his medical problems.

[retMD]

As he noted, he couldn't comment on their views because they were talking from a different area of expertise. He was firm on his.

As they were firm on theirs. The affadavit from one of the rehab docs was read out, the other referred to. And as you have not yet addressed, Dr. Walker acknowledged that there were 30 or 40 things that could cause the pattern he saw. He also indicated (as do most radiologists) that the clinical docs have the whole picture, and he only has a piece.

[retMD]

If I were that rehap doctor, and it turns out my patient ended up with a broken back on my watch, I would tend to blame it on something else, too

Sorry, but no. L1 compression fracture is a well-known complication of osteoporosis. Unless it was his fault she was dropped from a height while in rehab, or had a severe car accident while in rehab, no one would blame the rehab doc. Since you don't want to believe me on L1 compression fractures, do some research to refute that. Or if you or T'wit is around around a hospital (it sounded like T'wit may work in one, with his/her ready access to radiologists) ask whoever does spine - usually neurosurgeons, but in some places orthopedists.

[retMD]

We know that no fractures were recorded from all the xrays during the hospitalization. I too would like to see them, but as they aren't in the public domain, I can't. But that doesn't mean that I think the radiology group reading all 23 chest xrays was incompetent. Your theory depends on every single xray being misread. That isn't believable to me.

[8mmMauser]

I am sorry to hear about your son and his medical problems.

Thank you for your comment.

Actually, our son didn't have many medical problems, was just severely retarded for 26 years, but wasn't in such good shape as Terri was even at her worst except for the last thirteen days she was being killed by dehydration. He was very happy throughout his life and we were fortunate indeed for that.

We are very familiar with manifestations due to lack of spontaneous motion, yet kept him flexible enough for the most part despite a lifetime of inability to make spontaneous motion.

[T'wit]

>> And as you have not yet addressed, Dr. Walker acknowledged that there were 30 or 40 things that could cause the pattern he saw.

There was no need to address it, was there? No other sources of abnormalities were suggested, and of course, the 30 or 40 were increasingly rare. As he noted, there's no reason to toss those in. The radiologist goes after the most likely and explanatory cause(s).

More interesting by far is what Dr. Walker could rule out. He firmly denied that the pattern was consistent with either heterotrophic ossification or the effects of immobility for a patient with Terri's specific injuries.

I don't think one can pick and choose from the historical record, especially on the basis of courtroom memories under cross-examination a dozen years later. If we can't take Dr. Walker at his original and professional word, then we may as well give up on all other source materials, starting with the ones you cite but cannot show us or quote. Those are no good anyway until we see them.

The history of abiding interest is that Terri Schiavo was asleep in bed, then when her husband came home, she was found dying in the hall. The husband is the only suspect in her injuries and the autopsy report thoroughly debunked his only alibi. Niggle all you please about sudden axial loadings, this is the story people understand.

[bjs1779]

Sorry, but no. L1 compression fracture is a well-known complication of osteoporosis. Unless it was his fault she was dropped from a height while in rehab, or had a severe car accident while in rehab, no one would blame the rehab doc.

I don't know if it works like that. How do you think Michael Schiavo got the malpractice money to begin with for instance?

[retMD]

I didn't think it was on the basis of a compression fracture.

[retMD]

I don't think one can pick and choose from the historical record

But that's exactly what is happening. People here feel Dr. Walker is 100% right, and the rehab docs are wrong, the autopsy conclusions are wrong, the x-rays cited in the autopsy report have been misread (although there is no evidence for that), the pathologist who wrote about the x-rays didn't know what he was talking about, etc. People have decided they want to believe Michael Schiavo was responsible for the initial cardiac arrest because of his actions many years later. Despite negative investigations, and lack of evidence for that theory.

Which means I give up on this discussion. It's clear that no matter how many medical facts I cite, many of which are irrefutable (causes of L1 compression fractures), people believe what they want to believe, not what the facts indicate.

[T'wit]

>> Your theory depends on every single xray being misread.

That makes no sense. You've said that you don't know what is on those x-rays, so you have no basis to say that any of them contradicts my theory.

My point is that we know nothing about any of this until we see those alleged x-rays. Do they exist? We don't know; we have only hearsay. We don't know what they show. We don't know who has seen them. Do they show what you infer they do? We cannot possibly know -- at least not until the information is released, or leaks out.

We have tried to get those x-rays and medical records for years. They could answer so many questions that are black holes today.

[retMD]

No, I've said that I haven't seen them myself, but that I accept the word of the pathologist that they exist (and my own medical experience that they would have been taken.) I also accept that the pathologist reviewed the hospitalization records - he talks extensively about the initial hospitalization. So are you saying that he has made up everything pertaining to the original hospitalization? Are you saying that because we can't see the x-rays ourselves, that means they must show what fits your theory?

[bjs1779]

I didn't think it was on the basis of a compression fracture.

What was it based on?

[bjs1779]

Which means I give up on this discussion. It's clear that no matter how many medical facts I cite, many of which are irrefutable (causes of L1 compression fractures), people believe what they want to believe, not what the facts indicate.

Stick around Doc. Remember the fact from the medical examiner is that the MANER OF DEATH IS UNDETERMINED. That means Michael has not been ruled out, correct?

[bjs1779]

Here is that Dr. Hammesfahr radio interview. This is the only copy I can find, so if anyone wants to save to, they better do so before it also disappears.

http://www.apfn.org/audio/DrHammesfahr2.mp3