Romney says government was wrong in Schiavo case

St. Petersburg Times ^ | March 11, 2007 | Adam C. Smith

[EternalVigilance]

TAMPA -- He's campaigning hard for support from Republican social conservatives, but presidential candidate Mitt Romney said Saturday he disagreed with the government's intervention in the Terri Schiavo case.

"I think it's probably best to leave these kinds of matters in the hands of the courts," Romney said in a television interview airing today.

[T'wit]

>> but a struggle on the ground, no.

Do you have a source for this? Bodies in a "struggle" move every which way, so force would likewise be applied along different axes. And according to the bone scan, these forces affected not only the spine but "multiple" ribs and costovertebral aspects as well. One would certainly expect that the resulting stresses and injuries are likely to be extremely complex and correspondingly difficult to predict. The report said,

There are an extensive number of focal abnormal areas of nuclide accumulation of intense type. These include multiple bilateral ribs, the costovertebral aspects of several of the thoracic vertebral bodies, the L1 vertebral body...

Attorney Pat Anderson asked Dr. Walker, informationally, what all this means in lay terms? Here are his answers.

Q Okay. "These include multiple bilateral ribs." What would that mean to you?

A Well, you know, there's left ribs and right ribs. And that would mean that more than two ribs on each side were involved.

Q Would it necessarily mean that the first rib, left and right, as opposed to the first rib on the left side and say the fifth rib on the right side?

A No. There wouldn't be any meaning of that nature. Typically if it's one or two ribs, we'll actually specify, you know, rib approximately the second on the left. If you have large numbers of areas of activity, then it's superfluous to label each one in the report. And we would say "multiple."

Q And by "bilateral," you mean on each side of the sternum?

A It would be, yes, on each side of the body's midline.

Q Right. What does the word costovertebral mean?

A That's where the posterior part of the rib joins the spine. The rib on each side comes out from the spine and joins the spine by an articulated joint. And so that refers to where the ribs butt against the spinal vertebral bodies.

Q "Several of the thoracic vertebral bodies, the L1 vertebral body, both sacroiliac joints." These are all areas that were abnormal on the scan?

A That's what this indicates, yes.

[bjs1779]

One source, the Veteran's affairs Canada gave a cut-off for osteoporosis as a result of immobility as over 60 days.

I looked at your source and I don't see your point at all.

[T'wit]

>> I have always have been trying to get it in my mind just which way the L1 fracture was pointed.

Compression fracture is axial, meaning lengthwise. But the posteriors (backs) of "multiple" ribs were also affected (an odd area for injury), along with the costovertebral aspects, meaning where the ribs butt into the spine. If all this was in motion and under varying stress, I don't think anyone short of God could figure out what injuries would result.

Does this help explain it?

[bjs1779]

Does this help explain it?

I came across an article today that quoted Michael saying that he blamed it on the therapists. I don't have it linked right now, but he went on to say that "I have never struck any woman, epecially my wife".

[retMD]

I certainly agree that spinal cord injuries can come from violence. But it's the type of spinal cord injury that's important. You wouldn't expect a hangman's fracture from a direct blow, nor would you expect a clay-shoveler's fracture from hanging. I have quoted from medical sites on what causes L1 compression fracture in normal bone and in osteoporotic bone. I haven't seen any scientific evidence to dispute that. If you find it, by all means post it.

[retMD]

>> but a struggle on the ground, no.

Do you have a source for this?

Yes, the same souce I already posted, and the one you posted as well. The sections on etiology and pathophysiology talk about mechanisms for lumbar compression fractures. Your link on sports and spinal injuries also discussed causes of specific injuries. Look under "causes" about 1/4 of the way down the screen. The only fractures mentioned caused by a direct blow are spinous process fractures and transverse process fractures. Not compression fractures.

[retMD]

One source, the Veteran's affairs Canada gave a cut-off for osteoporosis as a result of immobility as over 60 days.

-I looked at your source and I don't see your point at all.

The point being that in a situation with young healthy people (many injured veterans would be young and healthy prior to injury) it only takes 60 days immobility for some to have significant osteoporosis. Terri Schiavo had over a year's immobility at the point the bone scan was done. Lumbar compression fracture is a frequent finding in osteoporosis.

[retMD]

Oops, meant "spinal column injury" not "spinal cord injury".

[supercat]

"Lizzie Borden, just perhaps, made her Ma and Pa collapse."

They fell down in a bloody mess
for reasons I can only guess.

[T'wit]

>> "I have never struck any woman, epecially my wife".

He didn't have to strike Terri to cause her anoxic injuries. For that matter he didn't have to strike Terri, later, to kill her. All he had to do is get the court's permission.

Which doesn't mean I believe him, about never hurting a woman. Terri was observed with bruises before the mysterious incident that produced such drastic injuries. Michael has threatened other women, including Cindy Shook and Suzanne Vitadamo. Big brave 6-6" man went right after 5-3" Suzanne.

[supercat]

I came across an article today that quoted Michael saying that he blamed it on the therapists. I don't have it linked right now, but he went on to say that "I have never struck any woman, epecially my wife".

Are those his exact words? Do truthful people ever talk like that?

[T'wit]

>> The only fractures mentioned caused by a direct blow are spinous process fractures and transverse process fractures. Not compression fractures.

Direct blow? Where did that come from? That's not in the theory.

We know that the traumatic injuries in that area were more extensive than just the compression fracture, and complex in nature. We know the injuries were severe. Dr. Walker and several other doctors have likened the level of violence shown by the bone scan to an auto wreck. Except Terri wasn't in an auto wreck. She was home asleep... until Michael got home. Then she ended up on the hallway floor, in cardiac arrest, unresponsive, making "gurgling" noises.

People can draw their own conclusions.

[T'wit]

:-) :-)

Bugs Moran's men, seven in all
We stood by Capone's against a wall
Then cardiac arrest took them all away --
It happened on St. Valentine's Day.

[T'wit]

"Were" stood.

[T'wit]

>> Dr. Walker's x-rays showed the injury over a year later, when she had been immobile for over a year, with all the bone abnormality that brings.

> That can be misleading.

Actually, Dr. Walker denied that her bedridden status had anything to do with it.

        Q     Assume that she was not in an auto
?                                             29
1     accident but that she had suffered an anoxic or
2     hypoxic encephalopathy type of injury from a cardiac
3     arrest and had been bedridden for a year at this
4     point.  What might account for these abnormalities?
5          A     In my knowledge, that type of injury
6     would not account for this pattern of abnormalities.

[retMD]

Direct blow? Where did that come from? That's not in the theory.

Even less so for pressure from his knees against her back. Read the articles I linked to and you linked to - that simply will not cause a compression fracture of the lumbar spine.

We know that the traumatic injuries in that area were more extensive than just the compression fracture, and complex in nature.

No, we don't know that. We know that a over a year later, after prolonged immobility and the bone changes that causes, Terri Schiavo had an abnormal bone scan. The radiologist felt it was traumatic, the pattern of an auto accident, but acknowledged there were "30 or 40 things that could cause abnormal bone scans of this wide nature." Her rehab doctors felt the scan was due to heterotrophic ossification.

Which means the only information about her bones immediately after the cardiac arrest was information from her intial hospitalization. Where no fractures were recorded, despite numerous x-rays. Note that autopsy mentions 23 chest x-rays, and those definitely would show thoracic vertebrae. Dr. Walker's testimony mentions "Several of the thoracic vertebral bodies" having hot spots as well as L1. Yet no vertebral fractures were recorded during the initial hospitalization. Further, while an ER doc or radiologist might miss one or even two rib fractures on a chest x-ray, I can't believe they would miss multiple rib fractures on both sides. Again, no fractures recorded on the 23 chest x rays from the initial hospitalization.

[retMD]

Actually, Dr. Walker denied that her bedridden status had anything to do with it.

Yet obviously her rehab doctors both disagreed with Dr. Walker. And I can link several articles about immobility resulting in osteoporosis, and osteoporosis association with lumbar (and thoracic) compression fractures. Any search will turn up such information.

[T'wit]

>> Read the articles I linked to and you linked to - that simply will not cause a compression fracture of the lumbar spine.

I did. They are quite repetitive, aren't they? You read the identical passages in both. I'm getting a little tired of that football helmet in the back :-)

I still think he had his knee in her back. Every other piece in the puzzle else fits well and this should too.

[T'wit]

>> Yet obviously her rehab doctors both disagreed with Dr. Walker.

As he noted, he couldn't comment on their views because they were talking from a different area of expertise. He was firm on his.

[T'wit]

>> No, we don't know that. We know that a over a year later, after prolonged immobility and the bone changes that causes,

Dr. Walker, as noted above, denied that immobility caused the bone abnormalities he observed. I take his word for it. He was there, so to speak.

>> Her rehab doctors felt the scan was due to heterotrophic ossification.

Dr. Walker very firmly denied it, and gave good reasons. And keep in mind that one of those rehab doctors is the one who ordered the scan -- for trauma.