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Romney says government was wrong in Schiavo case
St. Petersburg Times ^
| March 11, 2007
| Adam C. Smith
Posted on 03/11/2007 7:40:49 PM PDT by EternalVigilance
TAMPA -- He's campaigning hard for support from Republican social conservatives, but presidential candidate Mitt Romney said Saturday he disagreed with the government's intervention in the Terri Schiavo case.
"I think it's probably best to leave these kinds of matters in the hands of the courts," Romney said in a television interview airing today.
(Excerpt) Read more at orlandosentinel.com ...
TOPICS: Front Page News; Politics/Elections; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: electionpresident; elections; euthanasia; judicialtyranny; moralabsolutes; romney; romneyschiavo; schiavo; shiavo; terri; terrischiavo
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To: pillut48
I saw the videos. Was not convinced. The autopsy was difinitive and not subjective at all. She was completely brain dead without equivocation.
541
posted on
03/12/2007 12:56:28 PM PDT
by
RadioAstronomer
(Senior and Founding Member of Darwin Central)
To: RadioAstronomer
She was completely brain dead without equivocation. Your premise is destroyed by the fact that she breathed on her own. Braindead people don't breath on their own, sir.
542
posted on
03/12/2007 1:01:52 PM PDT
by
EternalVigilance
(The 4000 American kids who are being aborted today need an Abe Lincoln, not a Stephen Douglas...)
To: RadioAstronomer
I had a long conversation with one of Terri's nurses.
Terri responded to those in her room. Brightened up when they came in. Reacted to their jokes.
I'll take the word of those who were present as opposed to your cold, heartless assessment from a distance any day.
543
posted on
03/12/2007 1:04:40 PM PDT
by
EternalVigilance
(The 4000 American kids who are being aborted today need an Abe Lincoln, not a Stephen Douglas...)
To: retMD
As to "relative preservation" yes, as 50% is more than 10%, for example." To quote the autopsy report: "The frontal temporal and temporal poles and insular-cortex demonstrated relative preservation." The key word here is preservation, as opposed to deterioration. To borrow your arbitrary percentages, this indicates a figure closer to 100% than 50%, as anything 50% or below would of course be described as significant deterioration, not relative preservation.
This raises doubts as to the claim Terri was PVS. There is nothing conclusive in the autopsy report to confirm PVS, as you know.
Even more notable from the report is that Terri was declared brain-injured, not brain-dead. She was killed by dehydration, by lack of care, not naturally from a terminal illness, and the medical examiner stated that she was healthy enough to easily have lived another 10 years.
It doesn't mean she had enough grey matter to function.
The key is, nothing proves that she didn't have the mental capacity to function. It is possible she did, and yet the court refused to err on the side of life and stop her husband from seeking her death.
Please point me to a credible pathologist who disputes the cortical blindness.
Since no other pathologist but the two involved were allowed to participate in the autopsy, we must rely wholly on their claims of cortical blindness. The problem is, the finding of cortical blindness is meaningless without a timeframe from which to judge it.
It is possible that the dehydration, just as it caused shrinkage to her brain, contributed to the ultimate findings of her visual impairment.
NEW EXPLANATION FOR TERRI's PUTATIVE CORTICAL BLINDNESS: DEHYDRATION.
There is yet another potentially spurious interpretation of the objective data by the ME in the Autopsy Report: his suggestion that Terri suffered from total cortical blindness predating her death. Cortical blindness involves severe neuronal loss in the brain's visual cortex despite eyes that are anatomically and structurally healthy and intact .
The clear implication is that court-ordered videotapes of neurologic examinations from 2002 in which Terri Schiavo clearly appears to track visual objects, and visually recognize and react to people in her environment are examples of merely coincidental reflex movements being misinterpreted as visual and other conscious mental responses due to wishful thinking on the part of those wanting to keep her alive.
"Her vision centers of her brain were dead," the ME claimed. Thogmartin continued, "Therefore, Mrs. Schiavo had what's called cortical blindness. She was blind, could not see."
The clear implications of the ME's assertion (not to mention its mocking, hymnal tone) are: (1) that Terri was totally blind for the weeks, months and years prior to her death; and (2) that the widespread impression that she had vision and the capacity to track objects and even recognize people is a complete fiction or delusion on the part of her supporters, including neurologists who are experts in disability assessment. The statement, "She was blind, could not see," is senseless if limited to the period after her death or even the two week period where she was dying of dehydration. The ME's claim makes sense and has significance only if he was referring to the years and months prior to her death when she was being sustained by a feeding tube and her supporters were fighting to keep her alive.
Whatever his thought process, it is certain that the ME's contention that Terri suffered from cortical blindness predictably left the absolutely clear and unmistakable impression with the press and the public nationwide and worldwide that for years and years prior to her death Terri was totally blind and never saw or recognized anybody. Here the ME was contradicting the claims of parents, siblings, and friends who interacted with her, and several of the physicians and neurologists specializing in disability assessment who very thoroughly examined her level of mental, sensory and motor functioning back in 2002.
Leaving aside the claims of her supporters that Terri was sighted, prior to removal of her feeding tube and particularly back in 2002 when she was videotaped seemingly responding to visual stimuli, there are several factors that call into question both the ME's diagnostic interpretation and his personal motivation in communicating it:
(1) It is necessary to point out that it is virtually impossible for an autopsy to firmly date the onset of cortical blindness in a case such as Terri's. The mere fact that a decedent has massive neuronal damage to the occipital lobes at the time of autopsy does not prove that all or any such damage was present one month, one year, or one decade prior to death. On these grounds alone, we can say that Dr. Thogmartin was unwarranted in interpreting the findings as he did. Thogmartin all but dictated to the press that, back in 2002 when the court-sanctioned videotapes were made of her clearly appearing to track visual objects, this was all an illusion, and: "She was blind, could not see." We may cite on this question no lesser authorities than the two MEs, Drs. Thogmartin and Nelson themselves, as acknowledging in their written Autopsy Report that it is not legitimate or reliable to retroactively diagnose the clinical state in a living patient using that patient's postmortem findings particularly when the higher mental, sensory and motor functions are in question.
(2) There is nothing in the autopsy findings that negates the possibility that, having sustained a severe anoxic insult to her brain in 1990 (or at some later stage) causing major damage to her occipital lobes, Terri suffered for years not from total cortical blindness but from some degree of what is known as cortical visual impairment. To use the language of the ME, it is perfectly "consistent with" the postmortem findings that the damage to her occipital lobes occasioned a less-than-complete blindness. There are several possible causes of occipital lobe damage capable of causing cortical blindness or cortical visual impairment, one of which is elevated pressure due to hydrocephalus. To repeat, the postmortem finding reported by the ME, of "hypoxic damage and neuronal loss in her occipital lobes which indicates cortical blindness," is by no means proof that Terri was totally blind either in 2002 or even early in 2005 prior to implementation of the dehydration order. While this postmortem finding is "consistent with" longterm total cortical blindness, by no stretch of the imagination does it provide proof that she was totally blind during the years, months or even weeks prior to her being euthanized by dehydration. The fact is, there is every reason to suspect that Terri Schiavo had partial vision for years prior to the execution of the dehydration order.
(3) Lastly, we suggest it is also possible, according to recent reports in the medical literature such as this, that the devastating dehydration to which Terri was subjected during the last two weeks of her life, might have exacerbated her already existing cortical visual impairment. This dehydration, producing varied neurotoxic effects not at all limited to the loss of basic brain weight and volume referenced above, may have induced an ischemic insult in the occipital cortical region thereby occasioning significant neuronal loss that was magnified as the effects of dehydration progressed. It is not our intent to explain the actual mechanism that might have led to the objective autopsy finding of pervasive damage to the occipital lobes, but merely to remind the ME, the press and the public that such a postmortem finding does nothing to prove the existence of total cortical blindness prior to the inception of the dehydration process. What might have been the effects of dehydration on Terri's visual cortex, and did the dehydration process hasten the demise of already vulnerable brain structure? Based on the autopsy, there is reason to believe that back in 1990, Terri's visual cortex had borne the brunt of the anoxic attack in which she sustained profound damage to the occipital lobes and proximate regions of her brain. We may speculate that the already impaired visual centers of her brain were therefore most vulnerable to subsequent insults such as the severe dehydration that caused her death when her feeding tube was disconnected. Accordingly, what the ME found at autopsy may reflect the accelerated effects of extreme dehydration within the last two weeks of her life upon the already diseased visual cortex rather than what would have been the state of Terri's visual cortex had she not been deprived of fluids and feeding through her feeding tube.
All of the above evidence suggests that the Medical Examiners, Drs. Thogmartin and Nelson, likely went into the autopsy process with the preconceived notion that Terri Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state (PVS), incapable of any human mental functioning or even feeling pain, despite convincing evidence to the contrary. By bending and breaking the rules and standards of science and medicine, including those contained in their own Autopsy Report, they convinced themselves of the veracity of what they already knew prior to autopsy, and identified data such as reduced brain weight and cortical blindness that supported their preconceived conclusions. They then set about systematically providing the press with their manufactured "evidence" for the PVS diagnosis, knowing that the impatient liberal mainstream media was primed to spread these lies to the public in order to advance their political and social agenda.
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/eros/050629
Of the 40 doctors who claimed she was MCS rather than PVS how many actually examined her? As stated in the autopsy report, the medical examiner could not rule out that Terri had some awareness, rather than PVS. That fact alone validates her parents' effort to prevent her ordered death.
Of those medical professionals who had observed Terri in person, the most notable was Dr. Hammesfahr. The following is his sworn affidavit, as presented before Congress:
Declaration of William M. Hammesfahr, M.D. I, William M. Hammesfahr, M.D. have personal knowledge of the facts states in this Declaration and, if called as a witness, I could and would testify competently thereto under oath.
I declare as follows:
1. I am a Board-certified neurologist in private practice in Clearwater, Florida. My curriculum vitae is attached to this declaration.
2. I have previously filed affidavits and testified in the matter involving Terri Schiavo.
3. I have personally examined Terri Schiavo, reviewed her available medical records, and reviewed her CT can. When I last reviewed her CT scan I noted that Ms. Schiavo had significant brain tissue. She has a large amount of viable brain tissue in her cerebellum space and cerebral hemispheres, not just scar tissue or spinal fluid.
4. I have previously testified, and I am still of the opinion, that Ms. Schiavo is not in a persistent vegetative state.
5. Further, Ms. Schiavo had the ability to swallow. When I examined her approximately two years ago, she was not PVS of MCS, she was in an alert state, able to follow commands, able to respond to language, and able to swallow.
6. Her condition of hypoxic emcephalopathy is a type of stroke. It is a condition I routinely treat with therapy, sometimes 50 and 60 years, after the injury. She is only 15 years past the injury. We routinely see major improvements within the first six months of treating such patients. Terri Schiavo deserves to have the benefit of further treatment.
7. There have been new advances in medical evaluation and treatment for patients like Terri Schiavo even in just the past few years. For example, in November of 2003. Judge Susan Kirkland of the Florida Department of Health validated the treatment I have been providing victims of stroke by identifying me, during her ruling, "the first physician to treat patients successfully to restore deficits caused by stroke." With my therapy, there is improvement of blood flow to the brain.
8. There are other therapies that could benefit Terri Schiavo, such as Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy, and nutritional therapy, that all have high success rates, and these should be tried on Terri.
9. As a patient, Terri Schiavo is not in that bad of a condition to begin with. We treat many patients who are a lot worse. There are a lot of therapies out there that will very likely improve her condition, and they all compliment each other, so if you do them all in a series, she could get a lot better.
10. Without a doubt, I observed Terri swallow. At a previous hearing for Terri, all five physicians who examined her agreed and testified that she can swallow. We know that because the body makes approximately 2 liters of saliva and post-nasal drainage a day and if she can swallow that, which she can because she swallows her saliva, then she can swallow food.
11. I believe that it is wrong and medically unethical to remove Terri Schiavo's feeding tube and derive her of food and water. At the very least, further swallowing tests should be done, and swallowing therapy used, so that Terri can feed herself, without the use of the current feeding tube.
I declare under the penalty of perjury under the laws of the State of Florida that the foregoing is true and correct.
Executed this 06 day of March 2005, in Clearwater, Florida.
William M. Hammesfahr, M.D. Declarant.
There was absolutely no justification for killing this helpless human being, Terri Schiavo. She had a right to live.
544
posted on
03/12/2007 1:17:36 PM PDT
by
Gelato
(... a liberal is a liberal is a liberal ...)
To: EternalVigilance
Brain stem functions - yes. Higher cognitive functions -no. For all intents and purposes non-recoverable brain death.
545
posted on
03/12/2007 1:21:26 PM PDT
by
RadioAstronomer
(Senior and Founding Member of Darwin Central)
To: EternalVigilance
I'll take the word of those who were present as opposed to your cold, heartless assessment from a distance any day.The autopsy does not lie.
546
posted on
03/12/2007 1:22:19 PM PDT
by
RadioAstronomer
(Senior and Founding Member of Darwin Central)
To: voltaires_zit
Actually, it was Michael Shiavo and company who looked for and found an activist judge. And by changing the law midstream, they got the Florida legisalture to do their bidding.
547
posted on
03/12/2007 2:12:46 PM PDT
by
TAdams8591
(Guiliani is a Democrat in Republican drag.)
To: Swordfished
Not my quote, swordfished. It was don-o's. Nice try though.
You don't have to answer a question because someone asked it, btw.
548
posted on
03/12/2007 2:16:43 PM PDT
by
TAdams8591
(Guiliani is a Democrat in Republican drag.)
To: RadioAstronomer
>> It was not murder.
Would you at least agree to involuntary confinement and grand larceny? The murderer(s) kept Terri Schiavo locked up for years and stole most of her trust fund. Then they tortured her to death.
549
posted on
03/12/2007 2:27:54 PM PDT
by
T'wit
(Visitors: the good news is, lots of people have agreed with you. The bad news is, they were Nazis.)
To: TAdams8591
An interesting take, but one that doesn't jibe terribly well with reality as perceived by most folk.
Ms Schiavo's case was through the hands of many judges over an extended period of time. Some of them just ruled on procedural matters, some of them reviewed the entire case. All of them came to the same conclusion.
So then some folk decided to change the law, just for this one case, so that even MORE judges would get involved, hoping to find the one needle in the haystack that would agree with them. They never did find one.
Why do you suppose that is, if activist judges are so common?
550
posted on
03/12/2007 2:28:10 PM PDT
by
voltaires_zit
(Government is the problem, not the answer.)
To: Rome2000
551
posted on
03/12/2007 2:35:29 PM PDT
by
sport
To: sport
You agree with that vile post?
552
posted on
03/12/2007 2:38:27 PM PDT
by
RadioAstronomer
(Senior and Founding Member of Darwin Central)
To: voltaires_zit
"through the hands of many judges over an extended period of time." Until it reached the right activist judge, Judge George Greer. Terri Schindler's case was under his control for quite awhile. Not a good idea, btw, to give such cases to Probate Judges who generally decide upon the distribution of wealth and property. People are neither.
I could care less whether or not the side I took in the Schindler matter is supported by a majority or a minority. Once upon a time most people thought there was nothing wrong with slavery, either.
553
posted on
03/12/2007 3:18:43 PM PDT
by
TAdams8591
(Guiliani is a Democrat in Republican drag.)
To: T'wit
The Florida government got involved at Michael Schiavo's own invitation in 1998. It was seven years later, one week before Terri's death at the hands of state government, that the feds reacted. Their intervention had no effect whatever on the case. This was not a government murder. It was a family argument over what the patient's end-of-life wishes were. The state courts were the appropriate place to resolve that. It should have gone no further.
That said, it still misses my central point that, whatever the issues of the Schiavo case were, No One Should Wish Death On Someone's Child For The Parent's Political Views!
To: RadioAstronomer
I do. From your post it appears to me as if you think it is o.k to starve someone to death. But when your logic is applied to a member of your family, it is vile.
If it is wrong to starve a member of your family, it is wrong to starve anyone else.
555
posted on
03/12/2007 3:26:45 PM PDT
by
sport
To: RadioAstronomer
>> The autopsy does not lie.
Did you read it? It didn't say anything about her being "brain dead," as you put it. She was never diagnosed as brain dead, either in life or post-mortem. In fact, Dr. Nelson, the brain specialist assisting Dr. Thogmartin in the autopsy, was asked if his findings ruled out Terri interacting with her family as seen in several videos. "No," he replied.
The autopsy report did, however, destroy Michael's one thin alibi for once and for all. Terri did not "collapse" due to "bulimia." So now we are back to square one. How did Terri, healthy and asleep, end up face down on a hallway floor, in cardiac arrest, making gurgling noises, unresponsive and barely clinging to life, right after her husband got home late one Saturday night?
556
posted on
03/12/2007 3:30:32 PM PDT
by
T'wit
(Visitors: the good news is, lots of people have agreed with you. The bad news is, they were Nazis.)
To: Mrs. Don-o
>> Why wouldn't you need something in writing before you could take someone else's life?
You mean it isn't enough to ask the killer, his brother and his sister-in-law? I am shocked, SHOCKED, I tell you.
557
posted on
03/12/2007 3:33:04 PM PDT
by
T'wit
(Visitors: the good news is, lots of people have agreed with you. The bad news is, they were Nazis.)
To: Celtjew Libertarian
>> It was a family argument over what the patient's end-of-life wishes were.
So it's OK for a husband to kill his wife if he wins the argument?
It was not an end-of-life case, btw. Terri was not dying. She was not even ill. Her heart was healthy and strong. She had never had a heart attack. The coroner said she would have lived ten years or more if she hadn't been dehydrated and starved to death.
558
posted on
03/12/2007 3:39:09 PM PDT
by
T'wit
(Visitors: the good news is, lots of people have agreed with you. The bad news is, they were Nazis.)
To: EternalVigilance
EV, May I just send you the biggest hug across the miles for understanding this whole mess??? :*)
559
posted on
03/12/2007 3:44:12 PM PDT
by
pillut48
(CJ in TX (Bible Thumper and Proud!))
To: Celtjew Libertarian
>> This was not a government murder.
Actually it was. Even if we grant the state full power to grant an incompetent person a right to kill himself by refusing medical care, Judge Greer overreached and issued an order that Terri could not be fed or hydrated orally. This was ultra vires. In effect, he ordered her to be dead. He may have had lawful authority to allow her to die, but he certainly had no legal authority to kill her.
560
posted on
03/12/2007 3:54:19 PM PDT
by
T'wit
(Visitors: the good news is, lots of people have agreed with you. The bad news is, they were Nazis.)
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