Posted on 03/04/2007 9:45:43 AM PST by A_perfect_lady
My friends, my sister, and I were hanging out at a gay bar in West Hollywood last night (yes, really) because you can buy $1 draft beers during happy hour, and my little sister can flirt with men who won't actually try to take her home. She just moved out to Hollywood to live with me and, being only 29, she still likes to party. I'm the over-protective type, so I go with her and glower at anyone who gets too close.
Because it was a gay bar, all the men I met there were... oh, what's the word... gay, yes, that's it. I fell into a very interesting discussion with a 60 year old man who looked like a cross between Leonard Cohen, a biker, and a hippie. Long gray hair, black cowboy hat, wire rimmed glasses, big belt buckle. He has been "partners" with another fellow for two years now. His partner favors sequins and rhinestones, and whenever he meets a woman, he mulls over what movie star she resembles. It's very flattering. After a few drinks, I apparently look like Rachel Weiss. (I mean, after YOU have a few drinks, not me.)
Anyway. I was talking to this fellow, Michael, and I discovered the following: He has been an electrical engineer for 25 years. He was in a band. He was in the Air Force for at least six years, did a tour in Vietnam, one in Japan, and one in Oklahoma. He got out because they were going to station him next in Turkey and, frankly, the muslim world makes him a little uneasy.
He had one daughter before he came out of the closet. He recalls giving her a small allowance and then teaching her to budget with it. He emphasized education and sounds like he was a pretty tough dad. He thinks kids today are growing apathetic, lazy, spoiled, and he is worrying about what the overall declining work ethic is going to do to this country.
He thinks if the politicians would get out of the way and let the military do its job, we could handle the Islamofascists "immediately." September 11 didn't make him cry, it made him mad. He's still fiery-eyed about it.
And taxes today! Don't even get him started about how his hard-earned money is going to support an ever-larger stream of illegal aliens who come to this country to take advantage and give little back. He loves his country, his Harley... and some guy named Tony who wears sequins. I am not making this up.
He considers himself rather apolitical because he doesn't pay attention to prevaling political trends enough to know that he is unconsciously fairly conservative.
Now here is my fear: He and many others like him will be repelled back into knee-jerk DNC voting patterns because his perception of conservative thought will be influenced by things like Ann Coulter's blaring comment at CPAC suggesting that John Edwards is... oh, what's the word she used... I can't remember right now but it was one of those words that suggests that she, the uberconservative, feels that gay-baiting epithets are respectable political discourse.
Now, before you say anything, I know what some Freepers will think.
1) If my new buddies are gay, they are simply not the stuff of which conservatism is made. "Here we go," you might sigh. "Another one trying to convince us that gays are just like you and me but for one little, tiny difference." No, I'm not saying that. But conservatism... or at least, a willingness to vote conservative, can come in many guises, and Christianity or any other such moral code is only one. Many of us came to conservatism through Ayn Rand's writings, or through an admiration for our Founding Fathers. Some of us simply grew up and realized that liberal approaches are enabling disasters that encourage humanity to sink ever further into dependence, envy, and mediocrity.
If your conservatism stems from a philosophical or religious conviction that homosexuality flouts, please consider that the salvation of souls is a separate matter from voting for politicians who take our security seriously. Please do not shun or belittle those who might potentially come to agree with you on so many points, simply because they differ from you on this one. We do not want gays, feminists, et al, to be one issue voters. Let us not be one-issue discriminators. I know we would all like for others to live conservatively. But let us not reject the opportunity to encourage them to begin by voting conservatively.
2) The other protest that I have seen already, on different threads, is as follows: Ann is a private citizen, she can say what she wants, only a fool would think that Mitt Romney or Duncan Hunter feels the same way. But I submit to you that this is what I call "insider thinking." Of course, WE know whose stance is what... we are familiar with the nuances of conservative thought. We read up on politics every single day. But compare how an outsider such as Michael (and glittery Tony) views the conservative world: much like we view the muslim world. When a mad mullah or bomb-laden extremist foams at the mouth about decimating Israel and America, we look to the rest of the muslim world as if to say politely "And do you agree?" When all we hear are crickets chirping (and a few bombs going off prematurely because some Palestinian's cell phone got pinged) we notice. And we think, ah. I see. You agree.
If we do not agree, we do indeed have the responsibility to say so, as conservatives.
In fact, at the end of the evening an incident occured that captures this second point nicely. A very intoxicated young man with a penchant for chanting hiphop lyrics in people's faces, and flicking his lighter perilously close to women's noses, tried to put his arm around me. I had already developed a dislike for this one, and gave him a slight elbow while I stepped away. Outraged, he pursued me and I gave him a good shove. My sister told the bouncer and the other guys gathered round and chimed in their outrage. Throw that guy out! The bouncer threw the guy out.
For the next ten minutes, gay men were coming up to me anxiously: Are you alright? He's gone now, don't worry. He was a jerk. I don't like him either. I hope you aren't upset. We aren't all like that. Are you sure you're alright?
They instinctively came to reassure me, knowing that as an outsider, I could not distinguish between them unless they made known their stances. And Tony said, "I may be gay, but I'm still a man. Woman are supposed to be protected, you know?"
I am not on a crusade to get other Freepers to love gays and hang out in West Hollywood with me. There isn't enough parking there as is. And I do not despise Ann Coulter, I like most of what she's said over the years. She's funny, she's witty, she makes connections that dazzle me because I never even noticed them till she pointed them out.
But I disapprove of her use of that word. I rate it almost with the N word if only in terms of its ability to project hostility, belittlement, and a deliberate attempt to hurt. I cannot tell anyone else what to do, but if anyone, gay or not, asks me what *I* thought of her remark, I'm going to tell her: Not all conservatives have the attitude that gays are not to be respected. I disapprove of Ann's use of that word, even for comedy purposes, and I hope it does not scare all the Michaels and Tonys into voting DNC just because they think that the DNC, at least, cares about how they feel.
Bit of a stretch, don't you think? I give "gays" more credit than to rely on Ann Coulter for the conservative position on "gays."
I know! Aren't they awful?! Aren't you glad we aren't like that? Let's continue to not be like that.
You mean stay quiet and not respond hoping that we will curry favor with someone who might vote for us. I hope we don't allow such PC thinking to act as censorship of our free speech. We are not a monolith. We are individualists who can think and speak for ourselves. I don't know what you mean to "be like that." You mean to express our opinions freely and not be the victims of self-censorship for fear of offending someone?
For example, almost the entire MSM of this country did not publish the alleged insulting to Islam Danish cartoons. Why? Was it because they did not want to offend Muslims in this country or were they afraid that they might become the targets of Islamic retaliation? I think the latter was the case. The gay movement in the US has so intimidated most Americans that we can not say anything that would be even mildly critical of their lifestyle without being branded as a bigot and homophobe.
No, we should convince gays that illegal immigration, homeland security, and taxes are more important. It's easier to do that if they aren't feeling defensive because they think you hate them.
Rather simplistic thinking. If the "gays" believe that the GOP is the stonger party on illegal immigration, homeland security, and taxes, then they would be fools to vote for the Dems because they think that conservatives "hate" them.
Wait a second - do you mean to say there is a straight bar in West Hollywood, somewhere? ;-)
I see you were selective in what you agree with...
Why Ann Coulter's Remark Matters.........
IMHO
ann coulter = james carville
both are paid quite well to stir up the sh!t, and do so quite well.
also, neither should be taken seriously.
----------------------------------------------------
As I recall, my friends called me 'lucky'.
You and your pals ever expand your missionary work to dyker bars? Just wondering.
I do not have to search for raging emotionalism to see it in your post. I think I will simply let others read your discourse and mine, and come to their own conclusions. Your kind will speak on your behalf and my kind on mine. Have a good evening.
Not at all. I just think we should not call them "faggots."
As we should all be. I chose to be selective also the Ann Coulter remarks I agree with. Most I do. This one, I don't.
No. They're scary. ;^)
I don't know the "we" you are referring to unless you have a mouse in your pocket. Ann Coulter is not the conservative movement's official spokesman. She speaks for herself and I speak for myself. To conclude otherwise is to buy into the Dem smear campaign. Let Ann Coulter be Ann Coulter.
However, if she is an invited speaker at CPAC, and she says such things, those who do not disagree will be perceived as being in agreement. Those who agree with using such language in a political setting are also free to agree, either openly or by consenting silence.
I am simply suggesting that such an attitude will repel undecided voters who are gay but have many potentially conservative sympathies. If you do not care, you do not care. We are all free to be who we are, care about what we care about, etc.
Personally, I care. I think many gays are conservative on fiscal matters and matters pertaining to homeland security, and I do not wish to alienate them.
Well reasoned and beautifully written. And you look like Rachel Weiss? Sounds like you might be able to provide Ann with some competition.
Remember, this was happy hour.
I attended CPAC. There were a number of conservative speakers I did not agree with. There was a diversity of opinions and ideas. Ann's remarks about Edwards were not prepared. She was answering a number of questions from the audience including an evaluation of the various Dem and Rep candidates. She also had to fend off insulting questions from the likes of a The Nation reporter. Ann is known for using salty and pithy language to express her bitting wit. It is part of her appeal.
I am simply suggesting that such an attitude will repel undecided voters who are gay but have many potentially conservative sympathies. If you do not care, you do not care. We are all free to be who we are, care about what we care about, etc.
That really isn't Ann's concern or responsibility. She shouldn't have to weigh every word in fear of offending one group or another so they won't vote Rep. She is an individual pundit, author, and entertainer who has no official connection with the Rep Party or CPAC. She speaks for herself. I don't want to see her censored either by others or by herself.
Personally, I care. I think many gays are conservative on fiscal matters and matters pertaining to homeland security, and I do not wish to alienate them.
Gays are not a monolith nor are they necessarily single issue voters. In the end [no pun intended], they will vote in their own self-interests. You give Ann Coulter far too much credit for being influential and important in the grand scheme of things. What Bill Maher or Michael Moore has to say doesn't influence my vote in anyway.
The Dems are the ones trying to link Ann's remarks as being the prevaling opinion within the GOP and among conservatives. It is there typical smear tactics. One Freeper recently posted to respond to the following, "Ann Coulter is about saying things that will get her name in the paper. She is a liability to the conservative moment."
FRreeper comment: "What conservative movement? The one where liberals act offended and everybody craps their pants?
That particular comment, however, was below the belt and not worthy of CPAC or of Ann. Let me ask you this: if she had simply replaced "faggot" with "ni**er" and Edwards with Obama, would you shrug that off too?
Quite a few of the nice folks that hang out in "Gay Bars" are in fact "Bi" sexual and are more than willing to take a woman to bed. There in lies the problem, as these nice bisexuals are the perfect medium to pass HIV to sweet little girls who like dollar beers and flirting with strangers. Any fool who thinks this is innocent and safe is playing russian roullette with their own lives.
First of all she didn't call Edwards a faggot. She said she would refrain from commenting on Edwards because “if you say faggot, you have to go to rehab.” A little too nuanced for some. You must dislike the word, faggot, and prefer the "Breck Girl."
Everything depends on context. The N-word is taboo for some but not everyone. Chris Rock can use it his comedy routines, rappers include it in their songs, and Senator Byrd prefaces it with "white" N-word on 60 minutes to distance himself from his KKK past.
The point is that Ann did not use the N-word, which you now equate with the word faggot, which has several meanings. I am not defending Ann's use of the word or condemning her for it. She was making a joke as she did once before calling Gore a fag. She is an entertainer. That's her schtick. She also doesn't speak on behalf of CPAC anymore than any of the other speakers do. I can tell you this, she was the most popular speaker at CPAC eclipsing even the presidential candidates.
In a gay bar, so it wasn't just a line.
After living in the San Francisco Bay area for about 10 years, I was thoroughly tired of spending so much time interacting with gay men. My attitude was, "If you are gay, just go away."
Now, I am beginning to feel a similar tiredness after reading so many Freepers who appear determined to remain ignorant of the all-too-human reality of gay men. Most of the gays I knew wouldn't agree on the time of day, let alone some grand conspiratorial "gay agenda." These are not aliens trying to take over the world. Give it a rest.
As for Ann, I still want to love her, but that was a dumb comment. She reduced her effectiveness as a promoter of conservatism, and for what?
My question is still: if she had simply replaced the word "faggot" with the word "ni**er" and replaced Edwards with Obama, how would you feel about it? Same context, same everything, just those two changes.
I'm just so sick and tired of the double standard in this country I could scream.
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