Posted on 03/04/2007 8:01:09 AM PST by Uncle Miltie
E85 is a loser for reduced miles per gallon, as reported in published articles in recent magazines. Stories published in various magazines, e.g., Consumer Reports, CARandDRIVER, Bioscience, Scientific American, American Scientist and Science in 2005 and 2006 question the scientific and economic validity of ethanol (a mixture of gasoline and alcohol) made from corn grain or other fermentable carbohydrates (CHO).
Alcohol made from fermented cellosic material (wood from certain trees, plant materials from plants such as switchgrass or other grasses, etc. may be more feasible. However, cellosic materials are composed of complex CHOs which must be modified to more simple, fermentable CHOs to produce alcohol, and the needed economic procedures are not yet developed.
A significant fact is that gasoline from petroleum has 115,400 British Thermal Units per gallon whereas alcohol (ethanol) has only 75,670 BTUs per gallon, or, alcohol has only .66 the energy of gasoline.
Further, the energy input to produce corn, such as machinery, fertilizer, seed, etc., and the total process of conversion of corn grain to alcohol and by-products requires more energy than is produced in the ethanol, according to researchers at Cornell University (2007 publication) and others. However, others reported a 1.34 gain in energy from the ethanol from the corn when he included the energy of byproducts.
Two publications, Consumer Reports and CARandDRIVER in recent road tests or on an oval track, in 2006 trials found that E85 (gasoline mixed with 85 percent alcohol) has approximately 30 percent less mileage as compared to 87 octane gasoline. At prices of gasoline and E85 in August, 2006, the fuel costs to travel 400 miles (road) with E85 ($3.99) would have exceeded gasoline ($2.49), or a Tahoe Chevrolet went 400 miles on a tankful of gasoline versus the Tahoe going only 290 miles on a tankful of E85.
The author of the story in CARandDRIVER quoted that the Environmental Protection Agency has reported 28 percent reduction in mileage for E85 as compared to gasoline. E85 provided only 0.67 the mileage of gasoline.
Ethanol from corn has required large federal and state subsidies, a 51c/gallon federal subsidy of alcohol blended with gasoline, plus state subsidies and tax incentives to grow to its present 107 ethanol plants producing 5.1 billion gallons of alcohol in 2006, and growing.
The price of corn has increased
50 percent or more in six to nine months benefiting corn growers. The higher price of corn is hurting livestock producers (beef cattle, swine, poultry, etc.) because the price of feeder cattle has decreased significantly and the price of corn for feed has increased 50 percent in six months.
A potentially more efficient producer of liquid fuel energy is thought to be the “cellulosic” system, or production of alcohol from complex CHOs such as wood chips, plant material from corn stalks, and perennial grasses such as switchgrass. However, a basic problem is the development of enzyme(s) to convert complex CHOs to fermentable CHOs.
Economic transportation of such bulky materials also is a problem. Another problem is that the cellulosic plants will use about 500 to 1,000 gallons of water per minute or 1,440,000 gallons per 24 hours with plants closely spaced due to bulk of cellulosic material. (Says Dr. Thomas Robb, in Farm & Ranch Guide, Jan. 5)
The production and use of biodiesel (diesel from petroleum to which are added modified vegetable oils or waste fats) also have economic problems. Canola oil highly publicized for use now has a higher cost per pound or gallon than diesel fuel from petroleum, $3/gallon wholesale versus $2.47/gallon retail. Canola oil is popular for use in cooking or in foods.
Soybean oil has a lower price than canola oil but now has increased to 28.5c/lb. about 10 percent higher than the maximum, 25c/lb. at which using soybean oil in biodiesel will be economic.
The potential users of biofuels are urged to become better informed about their practical and economic feasibility. Stories in the popular press are mostly very favorable to “replaceable, sustainable biofuels” as are corn growers, speculators and most politicians. Other publications are skeptical to negative about the practical and economic feasibility of biofuels now produced from corn grain and other plant sources.
Carter and Nalewaja are professors emeritus in plant science at North Dakota State University.
Both had distinguished careers in teaching and research – Carter in flaxseed for food and fuel, Nalewaja in development of weed control practices. E-mail ImySm@aol.com
Oh, I see the problem here... The problem is that when you're comparing BTU/volume, you're comparing ethanol to gasoline. However, when discussing milage, you're comparing E85 (85% ethanol / 15% gasoline blend) to gasoline. That's where your mistake is coming from.
Mark
Read the paper at the link before mouthing off. The claim against ethanol that keeps being spouted was that it took more FOSSIL fuel to produce than the energy of the ethanol itself. The energy to make the sugar in the corn is free.
What are the numbers for each?
Great, just exclude the energy it took to make the money used to subsidize the ethanol.
According to the article it takes .74 BTU's of fossil fuel to make one BTU of Ethanol and it takes an extra .23 BTU's of fossil fuel to make one BTU of gasoline. That means that it takes an extra .5 BTU's of gasoline to make 1 BTU of Ethanol. The energy to make the carbon hydrogen compound in the gas is free. What is your point?
Not by a long shot. I've worked in remote oil fields where we produced our own fuel. It takes only a tiny fraction of the energy product to make it.
Uh, you might try reading the report at the link. That "is" what it is about.
But to give just one example--the single most energy intensive step in ethanol production is the distillation step, which happens around 100 deg. C. Just ONE step in the production of gasoline (catalytic cracking) happens at hundreds of degrees C. And that is just one of dozens of refining steps necessary to produce gasoline.
No, what the report says is that it takes 0.73MM BTU of fossil fuel to produce 1MM BTU of ethanol, and 1.23MM BTU of fossil fuel to produce 1MM BTU of gasoline. LEARN TO READ.
Look, dumbass-- the rough cut simple distillation you did to get the energy to run the oil well doesn't comprise nearly all the energy necessary to produce gasoline on a production scale--there is this little thing called an "oil refinery" at the other end of your pipeline that takes HUGE amounts of energy to run. READ THE DAMNE REPORT AT THE LINK.
Have you ever smelled the stuff? ug.
Your understanding of the energy balance (first law of thermodynamics) is severely limited or you didn't understand or read the article. Depending on the study, it takes anywhere from 70,000 MIDDLE EASTERN BTUS to 91,000 MIDDLE EASTERN BTUS to produce that 75,000 what you call american BTUs So in the worst case you're actually using more arab oil and in the other your getting a very marginal return. The papers I've read that show a 30+% increase do this by changing the way it's measured to include all of the by-products.
This is a bullsh.. way to measure it, since if you're producing it for fuel, then you're only entitled to measure the fuel output. The most optimistic studies based on the energy available show around a 6 - 7 pct net increase, and the less optimistic ones whow a 15% net decrease
DO you have anything other than your own opinion to support this?
Never underestimate the strength of the ADM lobby.
I drive a relatively new car - a 2006. Since Virginia mandated he corn whisky additive to our gasoline my mpg has dropped considerably. I was getting around 35. I now have to add a can of STP injector cleaner every few months when my mpg drops from around 32 to 25. It seems my injectors don’t like corn whisky.
Gasoline isn't so pleasant, either.
Doesn't smell as bad to me as butanol, but to each his own.
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