Posted on 03/01/2007 8:30:44 PM PST by blasater1960
Animal sacrifices should be renewed on the Temple Mount, a member of the radical Sanhedrin organization told Ynetnews.
In ancient Israel and Judea, the Sanhedrin served as the highest court in the land, and was made up of 71 top judges. Now, a group of îåãòä
fringe rabbis say they have reformed the group, although the organization has received no recognition from Israel's official religious authorities.
"In the Torah there are around 200 commandments dealing with animal sacrifices," said Rabbi Dov Stein, of the Sanhedrin organization. "The Torah of Israel demands animal sacrifices. When the people of Israel were in the Diaspora, it couldn’t be done. But now, there is the supreme institution, the Sanhedrin, made up of experts, and it can be done. The new Sanhedrin, like the old, will educate the people of Israel on how to keep and safeguard the Torah."
(Excerpt) Read more at ynetnews.com ...
You said -- "The prophecies are being fulfilled so quickly now that if I don't see something occurring in the news that is something God said would happen before He returns I am actually surprised."
The position regarding that -- when Christ returns for the church (from the Pre-trib standpoint) -- is that there is *nothing* left to be done before Christ returns. In other words, everything is done at this present time, in terms of all the prophecies and that Christ can return at *any moment*. It could be tonight, tomorrow, next week, next year or a decade -- but everything is done -- up to this point in time.
All the other things that are necessary happens *after* Jesus Christ returns for His church. And then there are quite a few things that will happen, all in a row -- including the revealing of the Antichrist and all the things that happen during the 7-year Tribulation time.
So, there's really nothing else left to "look for" in the way of fulfilled prophecies -- for the church. As it stands now, Christ coming for the church can happen *immediatley*.-- at any moment, even this very hour.
HOWEVER -- that being said -- there are what might be called "precursor events" (not "prophetic events").
The gathering together of the Temple furnishings and all the things to go along with the reconstruction of the Temple could be considered "precursor events". In other words, if the Temple is going to be built in a "near time frame" (and that happens *after* Christ returns for His church) -- then you are going to see certain things that happen *before* the Temple is actually constructed. We're seeing those "before events" right now. But, these "precursor" or "before" events are not "prophetic" because "strictly speaking" they are not in the Bible.
While the Bible may say that the Tempe "is there" -- in terms of what Jesus said in Matthew 24, in regards to the "abomination of desolation" -- the Bible *does not say* that the red heifer is going to be there. But, that's because the red heifer is a "precursor event" and not a "prophetic event".
Thus, we're seeing the lining up of a whole lot of precursor events to the things that *are* prophetic events that will happen later on. This is what is *very very interesting*.
Regards,
Star Traveler
HUH? Maybe for people that don't take the Jewish religion seriously.
That's like all those shallow evangelicals saying church is just one big party.
Anyway, the passover was the foreshadowing of the true passover Lamb which the Lord provided in Christ. Even the Jews of old knew that this was more than 'just a big BBQ' whether or not they accepted Christ as the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies. The reinstitution of animal sacrifices is important in Christian prophecy as a sign of the end times.
Actually I dont reject them as historical. I think that they are very likely accurate. When it comes to certain details, I am unsure, like the mass resurrection from the dead at the crucification. I cant say for sure whether or not that happened but to my knowlege there is no record of it in Jewish or secular sources. I find that a bit odd since that would have been a really big deal. And what happened to the mass of ressurected personages? Did they live to die again? Did any of them record their experiences? Things like that. But, these are a mere curiosity for me since the big question is, who is G-d? What does he expect from us? Again, I highly recommend, www.outreachjudaism.org .
I understand why you think that way, in that Gehinom is fairly well defined in rabbinic literature. While it sometimes is translated as "hell", and certainly is considered to be a terribly unpleasant place - it is not understood to be "hell" in the full sense of the term. The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that souls are not tortured in gehinom forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be twelve months, with extremely rare exception. This is the reason that even when in mourning for near relatives, Jews will not recite mourner's kaddish for longer than an eleven month period. Gehinom is considered to be a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Gan Eden ("Garden of Eden"). The origin of this thinking stems from the discussions of medieval scholars regarding the nature of existence in Olam Haba (the "world to come"), i.e., the aferlife. Maimonides on the one hand describes an entirely spiritual existence for souls, which he calls "disembodied intellects," while Nahmanides on the other, discusses an intensely spiritual existence on Earth, where spirituality and physicality are merged.
The Jewish Talmud refers to temporary punishments, but these references do not match the current doctrine of purgatory. In Rosh HaShanah 16b-17a, those who are between the sinful and the righteous are thrown temporarily into gehenna, but this event takes place on Judgment Day, not after one's own death. Sabbath 33b says the wicked are to suffer twelve months of punishment after death.
Be as that it may, the meaning of Gehenna must be established from facts furnished by the Scripture, not foisted upon us by extra-biblical philosophy or human tradition. To the intellectually honest reader of the Hebrew Scriptures, Gehenna can only be construed to mean a verdict which, besides condemning a man to death, also ordains that, after death, his body should be cast into the loathsome valley of Hinnom. This is the inherent sense of Gehenna in the Hebrew Scriptures, and as such one can certainly be assured that this is the very sense in which Christ used the term.
Geenna (#1067) represents the Hebrew Ge-Hinnon (the valley of Tophet) and a corresponding Aramaic word. Both the Hebrew and Aramaic rendering refer to the Valley of Hinnom's son." It is found 12 times in the NT, eleven times in the Synoptists, in every instance as uttered by the Lord Himself.
According to Strong, Gehenna is of Hebrew origin (#1516 and #2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:--hell. According to Jewish eschatology - concerned with the Jewish Messiah (Mashiach), the continuation of the Davidic line, and Olam Haba (which is Hebrew for "the world to come"; i.e. the afterlife), as found in the Tanakh, the Talmud, Rabbinic Commentaries - Gehenna, is a fiery place where the wicked are punished after they die or on Judgment Day.
The valley refered to forms the southern border of ancient Jerusalem and stretches from the foot of Mt. Zion, eastward, to the Kidron Valley. It is mentioned in the Tanakh several places (notably II Chr 28:3; 33:6; 2 Kgs 23:10) as the southwestern gate of Jerusalem, overlooking the valley, came to be known as "The Gate of the Valley". Jeremiah 7:31; 19:2-6; 32:35; the Book of Jeremiah (2:23) speaks of Jerusalemites worshipping Moloch and committing abominations, foreshadowing the destruction of Jerusalem. Originally it referred to a garbage dump in a deep narrow valley right outside the walls of Jerusalem (in modern-day Israel) where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse and keep down the stench. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, would be dumped.
Smith’s Dictionary of the Bible Volume I, states:
It became the common lay-stall garbage dump of the city, where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals, and every other kind of filth was cast.The dump was full of rotting garbage which sent up a stench that could be smelled for miles. Furthermore, this valley was frequently not controlled by the Jewish authority within the city walls. In II Kgs 23:10, King Josiah forbade the sacrificing of children to Moloch at Gehenna (though Baal is not mentioned in this particular verse). Rabbi Shlomo Yitzhaqi, author of the first comprehensive commentaries on the Talmud and Tanakh (works which remain a centerpiece of contemporary Jewish study - his commentaries being an indispensable companion to both casual and serious students of Judaism's primary texts), claims that the Tophet was the Molech. Since priests would bang on drums so that the father would not hear the groans of the child when he would be burned by the hands of the pagan image, Molech, they called it Topheth.
There are contemporary accounts of people who worked at dumps serving a city equivalently sized to Jerusalem during the time of the Roman Empire. The refuse would be put in large piles and set on fire. All day rains, even 4 inches in one hour, would fail to extinguish the flames. There would have been no way for the people of ancient Jerusalem to have quenched the fires of Gehenna either. The remains of animals were put in pits to be covered and worms (Greek, Maggots-Young, Page 1074) would get into them, and even after many gallons of insecticide was poured into a pit, the remains were observed to be continually moving due to the working of the maggots within the corpses. Back in the 1950 (and prior), many cities did not have landfills but had garbage dumps where they would heap their garbage into piles and set them ablaze. Big city garbage dumps were always burning night and day, and the smoke could sometimes be seen for miles. These were the same as Gehenna during the time ancient Jerusalem, and were literally used for the destruction of the unwanted city garbage. Brimstone (sulfur) was added to keep the garbage burning in Gehenna, and it was always burning night and day, and those near by could see the smoke always rising. On some of the four occasions Christ used Gehenna as a metaphor, those He was speaking to probably would have seen the smoke emminating from Gehenna in the background while He was speaking. The people of Jerusalem did not have a trash pickup as we do, and had to take their own trash to Gehenna, therefore, most of those Christ was speaking to would be intimately familiar with the never-ending fires and worms that He spoke of; many would have taken their trash to it. Albert Barnes in his commentary on Mat 5:22 says, "The extreme loathsomeness of the place, and filth and putrefaction, the corruption of the atmosphere, and the lurid fires blazing by day and by night, made it one of the most appalling and terrific objects with which a Jew was ever acquainted."
Children of Judah burned their sons and daughters in the fire in this valley, and Jehovah said, "It shall no more be called Topheth, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Topheth, till there be no place to bury. And the dead bodies of this people shall be food for the birds of the heavens, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall frighten them away. - Jer 7:31,32Sheol (#7585) in contrast has 65 occurances of the word distributed throughout every period of biblical Hebrew. The first connotation of the word intimates the state of death (Psa 6:5; cf. 18:5). It is also used for the final destiny of all men (Job 21:13). Hannah confessed that that it was God who brings men to Sheol, or kills them (I Sam 2:6). The word is parallel to Hebrew words for "pit" or "hell" (Job 26.6), "corruption" or "decay" (Psa 16:10), and "destruction" (Pro 15:11).
Jacob is attributed to the first use the word in Gen 37:35. It is used of a place of concious existance after death (Psa 16:10). And the wicked are stated to receive punishment there (Num 16:30; Deu 32:32; Psa 9:17). People are put to shame and silenced there (Psa 31:17). Jesus referred to Isaiah's use of the word (14:13-15) in pronouncing judgement on Capernaum (Mat 11:23), where Sheol was translated in the Greek to Hades.
Sheol is described as being an undesirable place for the wicked (Job 24:19), and a refuge for the righteous (Job 14:13), and a place of reward for them (Hos 13:14; cf. I Cor 15:55). Jesus' teaching in Luk 16:19-31 reflects accurately the Hebrew scripture teaching of Sheol, in that its a place of concious existance after death, one side occupied by the suffering, unrighteous dead seperated by a great chasm from the other side peopled by the righteous dead enjoying a reward.
However, Peter uses the word tartaroo (II Pet 2:4), which intimates consignment to Tartarus, which in fact connotates neither Sheol, nor Hades (#86), but the place where those angels whose special sin is referred to in that passage are confined "to be reserved unto judgement"; the region is described as "pits of darkness".
Hades, is used as referance to "the region of departed spirits of the lost" (but including the blessed dead in periods preceeding the ascension of Christ). It has been thought by some to be etymologically meant "the unseen" (from a, 'negative", and eido, "to see"), but this rendering is questionable; a more probable derivation would be from hado, signifying "all-receiving". It nevertheless corresponds to the Hebrew Sheol. In the King James translation, without exception, everywhere in the Old testament where the word "hell" appears, it is always translated from the Hebrew Sheol. Unfortunately, the KJV also rendered Sheol as "grave", e.g., Gen 37:35; or "the pit" (Num 16:30,33), although the latter is a proper translation. However, the term "Hades" never denotes the grave, nor is it the permanent region of the lost; in point of time it is, for such, intermediate between decease and the doom of the everlasting fires of Gehenna.
When we examine the original Hebrew, we find that the word gibrah is properly used for "grave" and is properly translated throughout the Old testament as "grave, burying place, and sepulchre" (e.g., Gen 47:30; I Kgs 13:30; II Sam 2:32; 3:32; Psa 88:5; etc.). Sheol is never in any case in the Old testament ever referring to grave, burying place or sepulchre; but, rather a place located in the center of the earth. The grave, burying place and sepulchre houses our dead bodies, but Sheol is the compartment that contains the imoortal souls and spirits which animated earthly bodies. A location for Sheol can be inferred from Pro 7:27; Isa 5:14; 14:9, 15, where the word "beneath" is translated out of the Hebrew tachath. It comes from a Hebrew root word meaning "to depress, the bottom, below and underneath", i.e., Sheol is located depressed, below, underneath and in the bottom of the earth.
In Psalm 139, David praises God for his attributes of omniscience and omnipresence. Notice what he states in 139:7,8 with references to heaven and hell. The word "heaven" here is in the plural (from the Hebrew shamayim), "im" making the reference plural and so should read "If I ascend up into the heavens.", i.e., passed the first heaven (our atmosphere), passed the second heaven (the planets), and on to the third heaven David attests to the fact that there is nowhere anyone can go to get away from the presence of God. The omnipresence of God is not germane here, the salient point being that of directionality. David states that if he goes the other direction from the surface of the earth, God is still there, even in the center of the earth where Sheol is located. Now the statement of David made that we are interested in, is this, "If I make my bed in Hell..." No way is David considering making his bed in a place of torment, for David was a saved man, a "man after God's own heart," and if he was thinking deeper than the basic facts he would have been thinking of making his bed in the Paradise side of Sheol.
The Hebrew Sheol and Greek Gehenna being references to the same place can logically be infered from a reading out of Deuteronomy:
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. - 32:22The fires of Gehenna burned physically and literally continuously for as long as the flames were provided fuel. This is just as true figuratively of Gehenna within Sheol, that the flames of Gehenna burn with everlasting, eternal torment. This is a logical inference based on a reading of the burning bush in Moses' day: "the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed." Now let us consider this in conjunction with what Scripture tells us about Gehenna, i.e. Isa 30:33. The Lord being eternal, there is no logical reason to conclude that the figurative fires of Gehenna in Sheol will die, or that whatever fuel therein will be consumed within any period of time concievable (in that the Lord is outside of time itself). Nevertheless, and that notwithstanding, there is a definite time of Judgement. Dan 12:2 refers to a resurrection of those that "sleep in the dust of the earth." This passage makes explicit reference to resurrection from the "grave", i.e., physical reconstitution. Until then, the spirit of the people referred to in this passage exist in the compartments torment or paradise of Sheol. The ultimate fate of those people in the Sheol compartment of torment should be abundantly clear: a place of "shame and everlasting contempt." To hold in comtempt means "to abhor, to despise, to detest." Not only will these individuals be held in contempt, but they will also hold in contempt, and despise, all things (including themselves). Sinners will take all their shame with them to their final Hell, and they will relive their shame moment after moment after moment. There is nothing but the depths of depression in Hell. That this is the final judgement is absolutely clear based on a reading of Dan 12:1, and Isa 66:22-24.
To consider that physically existing in the Gehenna of Sheol, as it is understood to have literaly existed during the time Jerusalem prior to its destruction in A.D. 70, doesn't carry any connotations of torment for its inhabitants staggers incredulity. That strikes me as being the epitome of depravity; I would have no clue then what actually would connotate "torment". Everything about Gehenna, both literal and figurative intimates a most vile, reprehensible and abominable place of existance. To interpret the Gehenna of Sheol as that of everlasting destruction in a state of oblivion makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. This would be analogous to a convicted murderer being sentanced to death, anesthatized to oblivion, their body ruthlessly mutilated, and tortured, and subjected to all sorts of depravities, then brought to conciousness with adrenalin or amphetamine or something, and then shot in the head. What sort of depraved righteousness or insane justice would that be?
Any other intimation would fly in the face of the meaning of immortality of the soul, albeit there being no authoritative systematic definition of "soul" that is embraced by Judaism (although various descriptions of the soul exist in classical rabbinic literature). It can be seen in the account of Rachel's death in Gen 35:18 equating with her soul (nephesh) departing. And the account given in I Kgs 17:21, we see Elijah praying for the return of a widow's boy to life, he entreats, "O LORD my God, I pray you, let this child's nephesh come into him again". From these passages it can be inferred that death meant that something called nephesh became separated from the body, and life could return when this essence returned (and for a time at least nephesh exists even so the corpse is inanimate). In Psa 31:9; Psa 63:1, Mic 6:7 the soul and body are noted as being separate entities. Saadia Gaon explains in Emunoth ve-Deoth 6:3 the classical rabbinic teaching about the soul comprising that part of a person's mind which constitutes physical desire, emotion, and thought. The Kabbalah teaches that the soul has three elements: the nefesh, ru'ah, and neshamah.
Nefesh is the lower or animal part of the soul, linking to instincts and bodily cravings and is found in all humans, and enters the physical body at birth. The Ruach is the "spirit" of man and contains the moral virtues and the ability to distinguish between good and evil (it equates to psyche or ego-personality). The Neshamah is the "higher" soul, and distinguishes man from all other life forms. It relates to the intellect, and allows man to enjoy and benefit from the afterlife. This part of the soul is provided both to Jew and non-Jew alike at birth. According to the Zohar, after death nefesh disintegrates, ruach is sent to a sort of intermediate zone where it is submitted to purification and enters in "temporary paradise", while neshamah returns to the source, the world of Platonic ideas, where it enjoys "the kiss of the beloved". After resurrection, ruach and neshamah are re-united in a permanently transmuted state of being.
Admittedly the foregoing is a weak argument, even when taking into account by extension the Kabbalistic doctrine (dogma?) concerning the survivability (for a time) of at least some aspect of the soul. Nevertheless, and that notwithstanding scrutiny, the crux of the matter rests entirely upon a fundamental principle that the creation of man itself inherently testifies to the eternal life of the soul. The Torah declares unequivocally, "And the Almighty formed the man of dust from the ground, and He blew into his nostrils the SOUL of life" (Gen 2:7). On this verse, the Zohar states unequivoclly that "one who blows, blows from within himself," indicating that the soul is actually part of God's essence. Since God's essence is completely spiritual and non-physical, it is impossible that the soul should die. The only logical conlclusion to this line of reasoning is that soul annihilation is NOT eisegetical, but exegetical.
The Lord God Jehovah, God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is infinitely Holy, infinitely righteous, and demands infite obediance. Transgressions against His Holy Law demands infinite punishment according to His infinite Justice. Being that God is infinite and eternal, then infinite justice must also be eternal, in that if soul annihilation was even plausible, then infinite punishment could not be meted out. Attonment for a crime must be provided for by the offending party to the offended party (and being a matter of justice om the strictest sense, is never finished). This is absoluely not something that Man can do for himself. The Lord knows this, and knew this before the beginning of time, and so with infinite intelligence schemed a plan for infinite salvation through infinite grace. Keep in mind that the issues are not only legal, but that of commercial interests. Genesis 15 speaks of a certain incident that occured that is utterly germane to my point. God and Abraham engaged in a contract with respect to an heir. God told Abraham what His part of the contract would be in v5. In accordance to Jewish Law, when a contract was made between two parties, a ritual had to be conducted by both parties signifying their unique, joint and several obligations within the contract. The ritual specified that there had to be a sacrifice. This entailed digging a trench, both sides of the trench were lined with a sacrifice provided by the provider party in the contract, and then the receipient of the contract would walk through the blood that pooled in the trench. You read Genesis 15, and you ascertain just who fullfilled what part of the contract ritual.
The foreging be as it may, nothwithstanding, and nevertheless, eternity is, admittedly, an extremely difficult concept to grasp. It seems to me that very few Christians really believe in the doctrine of eternal fires of hell, no matter how much they profess to do so. The idea of unending, conscious pain, whether physical or mental, is beyond anyone’s dark imagination or worst nightmares. Christians commonly believe that hell is a place of fire, torture and shrieks, yet, when was the last time any of us tearfully went to an unsaved person that we care about and begged them to ‘repent and believe’? The thought of hell should stir every single one of us into a state of near panic for the welfare of our unsaved relatives, friends and acquaintances, yet most of us do not blink an eye at the idea of some of our loved ones going there...
I beg all of those who hold the Scriptures to be the verbal plenary inspired Word of God, and yet still await the Messiah to definitively answer: who is the prophet referring to in Isaiah 52:13-53:12? Is he referring to himself, a prophet that came before him, or another yet to come? I implore you to most wholeheartedly and sincerly in this matter, for the destiny of your everlasting soul utterly depends upon it. I tell you this with utmost seriousness, there's nothing that you can do for yourself respecting this matter. Gen 15:6 is explictely clear about the matter, i.e. in this verse we see that neither circumcision nor adherence to The Law had any part whatsover in Abraham's righteousness. We see Jesus making a similar correlation to Nicodemus in Jn 3:14 (with respect to the plight of the Israelites in Num 21:4-9).
Shalom.
Ping.
Well, there will be a sacrifice also in the Millenial Kingdom too; totally different deal though (and neither will that sacrifice be efficatious). I believe you've already commented respecting that.
Just so you know, I'm watching you. I'm not following you around on this forum (by any stretch of imagination), but I've seen enough of your posts that I delve into them and scrutinize them with an electron microscope looking for the most minute flaw in the doctrine espoused in the content of your posts. So far its been a dry well in that regard.
Let me just state that I'm not actively seeking to "get you", but I am a zealot respecting doctrine and I'm a perigraine falcon in that regard.
The Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit and grace be unto you.
Wooooosh [waggling wings as my shape diminishes into the distance]!
No argument can be seen in your response. Your response appears to be purely rhetorical, in that no evidence is presented to support any claim made, implication or inference; one thing does not appear to follow from the other.
You appear to be throwing opinions around similar to dollars that grow on trees. Your entire reply is nothing more than me stating that "brown is blue."
Roger that.
A guy I used to know asked me about this sort of stuff some time ago.
I don't think it matters a whole lot whom I used to, or what I presently know.
Its a long story. Don't worry 'bout it (that's the thing 'bout "life": we all get through it one way or another, some more sudden then others, eh?).
And I'll take the "precurors"- no problem!! It just tells me that the return of my Lord is at the door!
I've always thought the abomination to be islam which set up the Dome of the Rock Mosque on the Temple grounds. Every people enslaved by islam becomes desolate despite billions in oil revenue.
You said -- "I've always thought the abomination to be islam which set up the Dome of the Rock Mosque on the Temple grounds. Every people enslaved by islam becomes desolate despite billions in oil revenue."
Well, Jesus pointed back to Daniel when He said the "abomination of desolation". I'm going to quote a big part of what Jesus said, to put the "abomination of desolation" in context to what is going on around it and as to the time frame.
Matthew 24:4-22
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.
6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.
10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.
18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.
19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
Then, following are the references in Daniel, for what Jesus was saying about the "abomination of desolation"
Daniel 9:27
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."
[note: a "week" here has the meaning of 7 years. According to what I've read elsewhere, it's a word that means a group of seven, and taken in context, it means a group of 7-years, that is a "week of years" -- sort of like what we would say when we say "decade", except that is a group of ten years.]
Daniel 11:31
31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.
Daniel 12:11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
[note: we see a counting of days, in some places, it refers to 1,260 days, or to 42 months, which is 3.5 years (half of 7 years). Then, in other places we see a counting of days for 1,290 days, and then 1,335 days. So, there are two periods of 1,260 days (42 months each, amounting to 7 years), and then there is a particular time period of 30 days additional and then 45 more days (the 1,290 days and the 1,335 days -- each extensions from the 2nd 1,260 days -- adding 30 days and 45 more days, respectively). So, this time period is counted *down to the very day* that it goes on. The "abomination of desolation" comes at the midpoint of the Tribulation, the last "week" (i.e., week of years = 7 years), meaning it happens at 42 months into the Tribulation. With the additional 30 and 45 days, these are time periods for which something else is happening, going on, at the time of Christ's return to earth.]
And then, the Apostle Paul gives further insight into this event --
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Now, this puts it in the Temple of God. And when Jesus referred to the Holy Place, this is not a reference to the grounds (i.e., the Temple Mount area), but to the Holy of Holies.
You see, about 200 years before Jesus was speaking this, a Greek Syrian King, Antiochus Epiphanes, did what Jesus was talking about. He put a statue of the Greek god of Zeus in the Holy of Holies and declared that this false god was to be worshipped.
Well, that forms the backdrop to what Jesus said to the people who were listening to Him. They understood from their history what Jesus was talking about. And so, Jesus was referring to a future time when such a man would come on the scene -- as told in Daniel, and expanded by Paul -- and demand to be worshipped as a god (as the One True God, no less...). This is what brings immediate judgement from God. This is why Jesus says to "get out" and get out now, when you see this.
Regards,
Star Traveler
P.S. -- Now, the Antichrist may very well be connected to Islam in some way. Who knows, perhaps the Antichrist is the Mahdi that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (President of Iran) keeps talking about. He says that the Mahdi is supposed to come on the scene very soon. And it appears that the Antichrist will be coming on the scene very shortly, too. Maybe they are one and the same. Perhaps the Mahdi is the one who sets up the 7-year peace agreement with Israel and then desecrates the holy place that Jesus speaks about, and then declares himself to be god. This would work... (in terms of fitting into prophecy, depending on how you "flesh out" all the details).
I was thinking about this comment last night and it occurred to me that the resurrection of the people at the crucifixion occurred in Jerusalem. I would bet that any secular or Jewish sources recording this were subsequently destroyed when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. Seriously, I am not aware of a lot of historical data coming out of that period, although I am no scholar.
Nowhere in the Tanakh is there any kind of "hell" (sheol) defined as an eternal place of torment after life. There's a description in Isaiah that's often misconstrued, though. In rebuttal to that misconstruction, only this world has new moons, carcasses, and the like.
Oh, Judaism tells of a heaven and hell, but they're different from heavens and hells described in other religions.
I'm much more easily leaving some bad habits behind, as I learn to do better things with more a positive mind/spirit. What we do in our earthly life is very important, contrary to the beliefs of my former religion. And what happens in the afterlife is up to G-d, IMO--not for us to worry about.
And on your question, "who is the prophet referring to in Isaiah 52:13-53:12," he referred to the people of Israel. If that's not clear enough for some, it is very clearly shown in Isaiah 41:8-9, 44:1-2, 21, 45:4, 48:20 and 49:3, that Israel is G-d's "servant" as mentioned in 52 and 53. ...also in many other parts of the Tanakh.
Um no. . . I am a deeply observant Jew, who knows a lot about Jewish history. It wasn't a "sacrifice" in the sense that the meat wasn't wasted -- everything was BBQ'd and eaten that night. The word Korban (usually translated "sacrifice" in English) actually means "to bring close" -- which is what the "sacrificial" rituals were about, ceremonies to get close to G-d. It was a big BBQ. A ceremonial BBQ, but still a BBQ.
You said -- "Just so you know, I'm watching you. I'm not following you around on this forum (by any stretch of imagination), but I've seen enough of your posts that I delve into them and scrutinize them with an electron microscope looking for the most minute flaw in the doctrine espoused in the content of your posts. So far its been a dry well in that regard."
Well, I saw this when you wrote it, but I thought I would let it sit for a while before getting back.
And, even after a few days, I'm not sure what to say about it. Let's just say that one can find a lot of people who will disagree with what I say. What will I do about that? I could say, "Not much" -- but no, when it comes to the Bible and what God says, I'll consider it (i.e., what they say when it is a disagreement).
Some things are very easily seen to be so far "out of bounds" from what Scripture says that actually there may not be a second's thought about it. However, other things, well..., might take a bit more.
One thing, for example, that I wouldn't give a second's thought to, as soon as it's identified, is Replacement Theology. That doesn't deserve answers or consideration towards the person who is adamantly in favor of it. The Bible is too overwhelmingly against that to even waste the time.
But, you probably know I can't look to one person or another as an arbitrer (or "arbiter" if you will) in these matters. I can look to some people for some possible enlightenment on facts that may change how I view surrounding context of Scripture, but Scripture itself will be the final arbitrer on the matter.
And so, even with the great names in history or in present day Evangelical circles, I see errors. For one, think of Martin Luther in regards to the Jews. Would I be persuaded from his writings about the Jews? No! But, I'll be persuaded by Luther on some other matters. So, not everyone has all the truth. The Scriptures do, though.
So, while I'm happy to see a fellow "traveler", going along the same pathway that God has laid down for all of us, I would try to keep my eyes on His Word and not the travelers.
And then you said -- "Let me just state that I'm not actively seeking to "get you", but I am a zealot respecting doctrine and I'm a perigraine falcon in that regard."
I would be happy to be the first one to hear about some error, actually. But, as I said above, those "errors" (so-called) have been pointed out to me before, by those who are enthusiastic about other doctrines. To them, I'm in error. To those who believe in Replacement Theology (for example), I'm severely in error.
So, please do keep reading. Of course, I'm not infallible; never thought I was and will never be. But, I have gotten an awful lot closer to understanding many things in the Bible, God's word, in the last (almost) 50 years.
I was uncomfortable for many years, having too many things "on the side" waiting to be explained and figured out (and that's where I put things, when they may be too confusing). Even Daniel was told to leave some "understanding" alone, as he would not be told and it was left until the end...
Daniel 12:8-11 (with some context of the subject)
8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, "My lord, what shall be the end of these things?"
9 And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
So, with Daniel, he heard but he did not understand. It was left and "sealed till the time of the end." As we are near to that time of the end (i.e., that revealing of the Antichrist and the time of the Tribulation and the final "week" of 7 years) -- it becomes more clear what that means. And as it's finally revealed, it is understood completely, at that future time. Even right now, we only have a partial understanding of it.
Therefore, if that's true of Daniel, how much more true is that going to be for me and everyone else, who looks into these things?
Please feel free to write and discuss some other things, in my mailbox if you wish. I'm sort of sporadic on this board and disappear at times. But, I'll get back.
Say..., off the above subject -- I would like to tell people about a very interesting book about Heaven. I've just ordered the book and will be reading it soon. But, I know what I'm about to read, since I've heard the author on many radio interviews. The book is called "Heaven" and the author is Randy Alcorn. He has a web site, with older interviews on it --
http://www.epm.org/
To purchase from Amazon -- http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0842379428/
I don't know all the ins and outs about this book and what the author will say, but from what I've heard so far, he sounds like he's got a book worth reading and considering. It puts Heaven into greater focus and understanding that most people will ever hear from the pulpit in a lifetime. And it's exciting stuff, too.
Well, enough of all that,
Star Traveler
Just pinging the names that showed up on this thread for something else interesting that I just recalled.
In talking about the Sanhedrin, I remembered the "Holy Half Shekel" being re-instituted -- from a few years back, about 1998 or so. I remember that it was said this was the first time to have this back in place again, since over 1,900 years ago.
So, I looked it up again. I came across the following "update" page on that same site that I recall from long ago.
It's at -- http://begedivri.com/shekel/Update.htm
The following is a partial posting of this update page.
Interesting. Thanks.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.