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Holocaust denial writer jailed for five years
http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworldwar/story/0,,2014554,00.html ^

Posted on 02/15/2007 10:57:59 PM PST by Muentzer2005

A German neo-Nazi publisher was yesterday sentenced to five years in prison for inciting racial hatred and denying that the Nazis murdered six million Jews.

Ernst Zündel, who was extradited from Canada to face trial in Germany in 2005, received the maximum sentence available for the crime of Holocaust denial after being found guilty on 14 counts ...

"You might as well argue that the sun rises in the west, but you cannot change that the Holocaust has been proven," he said, referring to Zündel's work Did Six Million Really Die? The prosecution accused him of using "pseudo-scientific methods" in an attempt to overturn the accepted facts on the Holocaust.

But campaigners for Zündel, 67, said he was a peaceful advocate of the right to free speech who was being denied that right. His supporters filled the courtroom.

At the close of the trial Zündel - who also wrote The Hitler We Loved and Why, and has described Hitler as "a decent and very peaceful man" - asked the court in Mannheim to set up an international commission of historians to explore the Holocaust. He said he wanted "hard facts" and not just witness statements, and that if the commission could prove Jews were gassed he would "hold a press conference at which I would publicly apologise to Jews, Israelis and the world".

(Excerpt) Read more at guardian.co.uk ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: dumkopf; freespeech; holocaust; holocaustdenial; schwienhund; zundel
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To: Muentzer2005
His sentence was well deserved. I don't consider group libel "free speech." I consider it incitement to genocide.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

41 posted on 02/16/2007 1:20:07 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: Muentzer2005

"...for the crime of Holocaust denial..."

Is this what Germany is about? Jailing people for their thoughts, no matter what they may be? Seems almost like the Nazis never left that country.


42 posted on 02/16/2007 2:01:23 AM PST by NapkinUser (Free Ramos and Compean! Disbarment for the Nifong-wannabe Johnny Sutton.)
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To: Swordmaker
I once met Ernst Zundel, a naturalized Canadian citizen

He was a permanent resident, not a citizen.

43 posted on 02/16/2007 2:11:23 AM PST by free me
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To: free me
He was a permanent resident, not a citizen.

According to Zundel and his wife, he was a naturalized Canadian Citizen. He had applied for US Citizenship.

44 posted on 02/16/2007 2:15:04 AM PST by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: Swordmaker
He and his wife lied then:

DECISION ON THE REASONABLENESS OF THE CERTIFICATE

INTRODUCTION

[1] On May 1, 2003, the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration and the Solicitor General of Canada (the Ministers) signed a certificate stating that Ernst Zündel, a permanent resident of Canada, is inadmissible on grounds of security, specifically, that there are reasonable grounds to believe that Mr. Zündel is inadmissible pursuant to sections 33, 34(1)(c), (d), (e) and (f) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, S.C. 2001, c.27 (Immigration Act or IRPA).

More here

45 posted on 02/16/2007 2:29:22 AM PST by free me
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To: free me

In the 1960s Zundel served in the Canadian Military as a medic. He says he was a Conscientious Objector.


46 posted on 02/16/2007 2:39:18 AM PST by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: Swordmaker
Well he also said there was no holocaust, so what?

I posted a link to the transcripts of the court preceding that removed this whack job from Canada. He was not a citizen, he was never extradited. There is more information at his entry in Wikipedia if your so inclined.

47 posted on 02/16/2007 2:52:08 AM PST by free me
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To: free me
He and his wife lied then:

May be. I am not a Zundel supporter. However, this is very strange. Not fifteen minutes ago I was reading the Wikipedia article on Zundel and read a paragraph that stated essentially that (paraphrased a bit, but pretty accurate to what I recall reading)

". . . After an 11 month trial, Zundel's Canadian Citizens ship had been revoked by Justice (?) as having been fradulently obtained . . ." and continued that ". . . his permanent resident status had been forfeited by his prolonged absence from the country."

After I read your comment, I returned to Widipedia to copy the quotation and post it here. I was shocked. That paragraph, has now been changed to read:

"Despite having lived in Canada for over forty years prior to moving to the United States, Zündel had never been able to obtain Canadian citizenship. Applications for citizenship were rejected by the government in 1966 and again in 1994 for reasons that have never been publicly disclosed.[1] So, upon his return to Canada, he had no status in the country as he was not a citizen and as his landed immmigrant status had been forfeited by his prolonged absence from the country."

Eerie... Other major changes, additions and deletions, were made in the Wikipedia article in that short time.

Which was the accurate information? I have no idea. Zundel claimed he had Canadian Citizenship and even served as a CO in the Canadian military in the 60s. My understanding is that the Canadian government revoked his Citizenship and that is what the article said... before being revised, almost literally before my eyes. In that it can be edited by both supporters and opponents, it is had to know.

Late addition: I just found a link to the "Zundelsite" where I found this "After more than four decades in Canada, including a failed effort to acquire Canadian citizenship, he moved to the United States , where in January 2000 he married Ingrid Rimland." So it looks like that is the truth. The other is propaganda. Thanks, Free me.

I am still concerned about the issues of Free Speech... To quote a saying attributed to Voltaire (that he didn't say, it was actually said by Evelyn Beatrice Hall under the pseudonym S[tephen] G. Tallentyre in a 1906 book "The Friends of Voltaire") "I disapprove of what you say, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it."

Then I will ridicule Zundel's idiotic opinions to death.

48 posted on 02/16/2007 3:21:49 AM PST by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: Swordmaker

Ah, the old "dueling wikipedia syndrome" strikes again,as you said, it's the nature of the beast.

I don't agree with Germany's version of free speech either, I just have a tendency to point out errors when I see them.
I did not mean to imply you supported this nut nor to take away from the remainder of your post.


49 posted on 02/16/2007 3:50:08 AM PST by free me
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To: Alouette; SJackson; M. Espinola
Ping

Please forgive me for the reminder, but you might want to see the post. Then try to have a peaceful evening and forget about the news for a day.
50 posted on 02/16/2007 4:39:46 AM PST by familyop (Essayons)
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To: Muentzer2005
So long as he wasn't advocating or inciting violence, he should of been allowed to speak. If he believes what he does, then others do. Putting him in jail does not refute what he said. It only makes it look as if the government is hiding something, and in fact they are, this man and his views. The silencing of him is enough for some people to believe him.
51 posted on 02/16/2007 4:44:42 AM PST by Leisler (REAL ENVIRONMENTALISTS WALK.)
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To: CarrotAndStick
"I was wondering just that! Arrested for his thoughts? As if jailtime is going to remove it!

I wonder if there's something else to it...
"

Yes. There's much more to it. Try the keyword, "denazification" in a search engine. That should lead you to information on how we prevented further guerrilla wars with Nazis after World War II. Germany has continued some of those policies since then in order to keep Nazism from rising to power again.

We should be doing something more like that in Islamo-fascist terrorist areas. Then in a couple more generations, people could complain about a lack of free speech for Islamo-fascists in their nations. IMO, that's what we'll be forced to do before the current War on Terror is finished. And BTW, many neo-Nazis and their religious identity crypto-Nazi friends have written their sympathies for Islamo-fascist regimes and against our military efforts against terrorism.

Propanganda for the purpose of murdering all people of one belief system works against free speech. Such propaganda is an incitement for mass murders. Freedom of speech is for the purpose of keeping freedom in free nations--not for starting genocidal, totalitarian governments. And fascists must ban any and all speech against their political efforts in order to hold on to their preferred kind of government for even a short time.

I'll put it this way. Would Islamists be allowed to incrementally publish propaganda in Delhi toward the extermination of all Hindus in India? Or would they be jailed for incitement? And would the government in India be wise to jail them for that? In my opinion, they would.
52 posted on 02/16/2007 4:45:33 AM PST by familyop (Essayons)
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To: goldstategop
"His sentence was well deserved. I don't consider group libel 'free speech.' I consider it incitement to genocide."

...agreed! There are many uneducated people in America (and obviously, in this thread), who don't realize that quite a few different kinds of speech have always been illegal in our USA. And there are others who know that but are too dishonest to admit it. Public promotions for murdering individuals and groups are against the law and always have been. Germany just happens to have laws against a known and formerly established method of incrementalist incitement to mass murder and attempted extermination of a whole people who adhere to one good belief system.
53 posted on 02/16/2007 4:55:31 AM PST by familyop (Essayons)
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To: The Pack Knight
"As much as I despise the garbage he and his ilk write, the real story is the fact that not only was a man put in prison for writing something, but that our cousins to the north cooperated. This is what passes for liberty in Europe these days. Sorry, but I'll take a million Ward Churchills over that any day."

You can have the Ward Churchills, and the rest of us will side-up with the Winston Churchills who would punish such traitors. Propaganda for genocide is a tool of war against free nations.
54 posted on 02/16/2007 5:03:43 AM PST by familyop (Essayons)
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To: Muentzer2005

I can't believe what my pupils read this morning.

Today freedom of speech and uttering the truth is a crime; tomorrow our very thoughts will be punished as well as a crime.

And then people wonder what's wrong with Europe, the USA and the rest of the Western world.


55 posted on 02/16/2007 5:04:17 AM PST by baubau
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To: kress

"Nazism, WWII and the Holocaust have been by far Germany's worst moment in their history.

WWII worst moment was the killing of tens of millions of people, 90% of which were Christians - 25 millions of which were Russians.


56 posted on 02/16/2007 5:13:03 AM PST by baubau
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To: baubau
"I can't believe what my pupils read this morning.

Today freedom of speech and uttering the truth is a crime...
"

...uttering the truth? Any reasonable reader would take that as an agreement with Zundel's Holocaust denial.

And most people in American don't mourn the losses of Nazis and Communists during World War II.

And BTW, you're quite new to Free Republic.
57 posted on 02/16/2007 5:20:56 AM PST by familyop (Essayons)
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To: Muentzer2005

How many times does it have to be explained to people that the Holocaust began with speech, with demonizing Jews in print, which is why Julius Streicher, the infamous publisher of the Nazi propaganda paper Dur Sturmer was convicted at Nuremberg. Certain European countries have laws in place to punish Holocaust denial for a very valid reason. Why do some people immediately jump in to defend scum like Ernst Zundel??


58 posted on 02/16/2007 5:21:35 AM PST by veronica (Duncan Donuts 08...)
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To: Muentzer2005
Did Six Million Really Die?

No it was more like 10-12 million, counting Slavs, Gypsies, etc.
59 posted on 02/16/2007 5:22:51 AM PST by Little Ray
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To: Muentzer2005

Holocaust denial writer jailed for five years

What the media and the government "scientists" want:

Global warming denial writer jailed for five years


60 posted on 02/16/2007 5:24:43 AM PST by from occupied ga (Your most dangerous enemy is your own government)
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