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Embarrassed
January 27, 2007
| AdamSmithWasRight
Posted on 01/26/2007 9:16:25 AM PST by AdamSmithWasRight
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To: jcb1379
That is a distinction lost on many I'm afraid. And here I thought all those hours reading primary sources, and stacks of books piled in the basement to hold up the Lego creations and Hot wheels tracks, were never going to be used properly again. ;-)
To: Aurorales
It is the Muslim faith having a problem with a true Muslim being an American. Ignorant oversimplification. There are many sects of Islam. Saying all Muslims are radical or have a problem with America is like saying all Christians are snake handlers.
202
posted on
01/26/2007 1:21:14 PM PST
by
presidio9
(There is something wonderful about a country that produces a brave and humble man like Wesley Autrey)
To: dynoman; AdamSmithWasRight
It is unbelievable. It is unbelievable that some here presume to deny this Muslim his membership in the community we enjoy as Americans. And I think it beyond the pale for some here to question this gentleman's loyalty to America.
Unlike many of you, who state that a Muslim cannot be an American, this Muslim has earned the right to call himself an American. He has, by virtue of his post, as we all know the case to be, alienated himself from a substantial portion of the Muslim community. Moreover he has emblazoned a scarlet letter upon himself which marks him not just for ostracism but for death. Think about that before branding him as unfit and rejecting him.
Like Christianity, Islam is a great force and has the capacity to unify, focus and motivate billions. To cut Islam out of a Muslim is to remove his spirit and moral fiber. I think it much wiser to avoid the wholesale lobotomization of Muslims and instead to work to channel and reform such spirit and morality into impassioned Americana. You cannot stand against Islam as one cannot stand against the force of the Mississippi. But you can turn it and by doing so harness its great energy.
Many forget the countless bloody struggles by secular societies to harness or accommodate Christianity and vice versa. But, the backbone of what made America great, are the moral precepts which are central tenents of the Christian Faith.
I'm not naive. I am the first to scrutinize Muslims. I am a zealous supporter of the war in Iraq and only find fault in the fact that we have not leveled Iran. I was the first to make my Muhammad Cartoon shirt because I find censorship abominable. And, Yes I understand we have an awesome military and nuclear arsenal and that we could in fact stand against the river I mentioned above through the waging of atomic/biological/chemical warfare. But this will never happen. Yes I agree that Islam as currently practiced is incompatible with civilized society as I see it. Yes, I obviously don't believe in moral relativism. Yes I am aware that certain teachings in the Koran are antithetical to Western Democracy. But, having said all this, I'd note that if you think the Old Testament does not also contain such things then you have not read it. And if you think that Christianity was always tame then you have not read your history.
As Christianity has changed such that it now exists in a symbiotic relationship with Democracy so too can Islam. As the Yoga professor, who I never had, once never taught me, you must turn the great force of your opponent and put it to your uses.
That said, the only way to transform Islam is to garner its respect. Islam respects the sword and the strong. Therefore the first matter at hand is the non pc waging of war. By all appearances America is incapable of doing this. For this I wish to thank the democrats and their msm allies for making us look like Pansy's.
To: Eva; AdamSmithWasRight
I do agree with your remark that apologies are too little, too late, unless the apologies are followed by action by more than a few scattered Muslims. I DO agree with the sentiment that Muslims in general, and American Muslims in particular have not done enough to denounce some of the more recent and disgusting actions that Muslims have taken. I'm not saying that Christians and Jews don't have things to apologize for from time to time. Just that your silence adds fuel to some of the uglier sentiments that we have witnessed here.
204
posted on
01/26/2007 1:25:02 PM PST
by
presidio9
(There is something wonderful about a country that produces a brave and humble man like Wesley Autrey)
To: AdamSmithWasRight
I just want to Thank you for starting this thread for a number of reasons. Most importantly, you have exposed some less than admirable fellow posters.
Good luck with your studies, I'm sure your going to find greatness.
Jeff
205
posted on
01/26/2007 1:26:04 PM PST
by
Jeffrey_D.
(Seek first to understand, then to be understood)
To: edcoil
There's apparently no restriction on being an American and an asshole though.
206
posted on
01/26/2007 1:28:57 PM PST
by
rattrap
To: presidio9
Separation of church and state is a cannon of the Church, not an American concept. It came here along with the first Americans, who were Christians. Freedom of religion was not freedom FROM religion, it was meant as freedom for all denominations of Christianity to practice without prejudice, that there be no interference by government on any church establishment, Not meaning "the establishment of any church in government". They stepped of the boat carrying their Gospels, not Korans or any other text. It isn't hard to see the intent, because those that wrote it were strongly Christian themselves. Muslims, Buddhists, Hindu's weren't even a passing thought at the time.
To: presidio9
No, not ignorant, far from it. Maybe I did simplify it but I chose to.
A true Muslim will have problems with our laws and belief system.
From my reading on the subject of Muslims, this is what I believe.
To: Ditto
"It basically says that if you want to worship a Golden Calf, Congress will not interfere with your choice or force you to worship or support any particular faith." Doesn't say that at all. All it says is that no one (of the Christian churches) ie Catholic, protestant, Anglican, will have favor over the other. It's freedom OF religion, not FROM religion. And government will not interfere with the church.
To: Nathan Zachary
Either you are lying, or you are just ignorant. Which is it?
"In his autobiography, Jefferson recounted with satisfaction that in the struggle to pass his landmark Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom (1786), the Virginia legislature "rejected by a great majority" an effort to limit the bill's scope "in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan." George Washington suggested a way for Muslims to "obtain proper relief" from a proposed Virginia bill, laying taxes to support Christian worship. On another occasion, the first president declared that he would welcome "Mohometans" to Mount Vernon if they were "good workmen" (see page 96). Officials in Massachusetts were equally insistent that their influential Constitution of 1780 afforded "the most ample liberty of conscience
to Deists, Mahometans, Jews and Christians," a point that Chief Justice Theophilus Parsons resoundingly affirmed in 1810."
Source: The Library Of Congress
210
posted on
01/26/2007 1:37:08 PM PST
by
presidio9
(There is something wonderful about a country that produces a brave and humble man like Wesley Autrey)
To: Aurorales
A true Muslim will have problems with our laws and belief system. From my reading on the subject of Muslims, this is what I believe. So what? I am a Catholic. I reject Roe V. Wade. Does that make me unAmerican?
211
posted on
01/26/2007 1:38:24 PM PST
by
presidio9
(There is something wonderful about a country that produces a brave and humble man like Wesley Autrey)
To: presidio9
There are TWO main secs, three if you count Sunni/wahabism. All others are not considered Islam and are apostates by those three. They are what 90% of all Muslims belong to.
Except for a few sura's in the Koran and a few hadith, they all read basically the same Koran as well.
The other secs do not add up to much.
To: presidio9
You're good..........!!!!
213
posted on
01/26/2007 1:41:34 PM PST
by
Jeffrey_D.
(Seek first to understand, then to be understood)
To: presidio9
Re-read what I said. We are a "Christian nation" insomuch as the majority of our populace is Christian. Germany is a "Lutheran nation," England an "Anglican nation," Pakistan a "Muslim nation," China a "Buddhist nation," and so on and so on. We are not a LEGALLY Christian nation, as the Christian religion is not codified in law. We are a SOCIALLY Christian nation, as the majority of our population is Christian.
214
posted on
01/26/2007 1:42:34 PM PST
by
jcb1379
To: pollyannaish
Ah, c'mon, you are supposed to use reinforced papertowel rolls for structural support! Thataway, your books can hold open stubborn doors or even out wobbly tables!
215
posted on
01/26/2007 1:43:51 PM PST
by
jcb1379
To: StructuredChaos
216
posted on
01/26/2007 1:44:24 PM PST
by
jcb1379
To: presidio9
Really? Seems that is someone narritive you've posted, not Jeffersons Autobiograghy.
To: Nathan Zachary
Doesn't say your take on it either; simply says that Congress can't make any law favoring or disparaging any religion. SO, if I want to worship a golden calf, Congress can't encourage it nor can Congress deny my right to do so. Thus the original statement stands.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." i.e. Congress will not establish a national religion, nor will they prevent any religion from practicing.
218
posted on
01/26/2007 1:46:55 PM PST
by
jcb1379
To: Nathan Zachary
"nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (i.e. worshiping Golden Calfs if you choose)
219
posted on
01/26/2007 1:47:39 PM PST
by
Ditto
To: jcb1379
Oops. I'll take the penalty for improper use of equipment. :-)
I'm out of here, but I see I'm leaving the place in stellar hands.
Have a good one.
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