Posted on 01/26/2007 9:16:25 AM PST by AdamSmithWasRight
I am an American but also a Christian.
Or do you object to that also?
Therein lies the problem. We are Americans, and we want to believe everyone has the same basic values that we have. We all know that to be an American basically boils down to "The Four Freedoms" (which I am sure we all know about at a primal American level, even if we cannot articulate it on demand...)
For those of you who may have forgotten, the "Four Freedoms" are Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Worship, Freedom from Want and Freedom from Fear.
We think EVERYONE has those same values...and most certainly, the last two, Freedom from Want and Fear have got to be universally held.
But make no mistake about it. Freedom of Worship and Freedom of Speech are NOT universally held goals. The point is, Freedom of Worship and Freedom of Speech may be arguably presented as being completely compatible with nearly any version of Christianity or Judaism, but they are most definitely NOT compatible with more than a few largely accepted and followed versions of Islam.
Which would suggest that post-struggle, other religions could also do so. Or at least it's worth a shot. What other choice do we have?
http://www.islamundressed.com/
Also:
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/chapter.aspx?g=401&i=41003
The problem with that is that, just as in our foreign policies, it assumes an 18th century liberal European mind set and traditional European definitions of religion.
The problem today, one that AdamSmithWasRight faces just as the rest of us do, it that Islam itself is literally the opposite of those core beliefs.
Islam is a construct that intends secular bodies merely to administer religious dictate. It should be no surprise that those dictates may change from generation to generation:
Not many guitars in Catholic services a half century ago.
Not many homicide bombers wandering our subways only fifteen years ago.
What ASWR and any like him (her?) must face up to is that today's OFICIAL islamic direction is expansionist, violent, and well tuned to known western weaknesses. He appears to face up to the FACT that overseas muslims have failed utterly to present a counter argument based on their generally better conditions outside of muslim states than within them - and the absolute lunacy in believing that things would be better in an islamified west.
He may well also have to face the fact that his co-religionists might well seek to punish him for it.
It seems clear from Taxi driver's denial of services, from demands for the 'right' to go masked (when that is not even a part of islamic writ), and the insta-mob politics of European muslims, that they are now re-writing their creed to support violelnt expansion.
It does seem true that muslims intend to be muslims first and Americans (etc.) only when the other side has been subdued. That attitude has been honed on over fifty years of UN/NGO/PC acquiescence toward violence and deceit and without change I don't see how you mend fences.
Well, you print up new peacefull Korans, and us army guys will go burn all the old ones.
Unless that happens, you may as well convert now.
...and rocket scientists, obviously.
If one believes that Islam is a religion in the sense we understand religion, sure it's possible to be both. But it's not...Islam is no mere religion, it's also theocracy, which does conflict with being an American.
He can say he's both, he can assert he's both, he may even believe he's both. But there's an inherent internal conflict between the two that cannot be resolved; he will, at some point, have to choose.
It's not because someone criticized him; it's not because someone outlawed it; there's an inherent, internal, inevitable, irreconcilable conflict. Those who come from a society that understands a separation of church and state...have a fundamentally different world view than those who come from a Muslim society, where they are one and the same.
Islam is no mere religion...it comes with it's own system of government which is antithetical to ours.
Render unto Caesar...
Even longer than that. Islam has been brushing the dust off itself since the defeat of the ottoman empire. They mean to take it all back, and then some.
Too bad he's not a smoker.
Do you not understand THEIR position?
Before the ink dried at the end of ww1 50 million Christians were slaughtered by the Turks and others, and that was just the beginning.
You don't seem to be able to grasp the size of the war were are heading into.
Think BILLIONS.
Neither of the two states women are property, or that a race/group of people are pigs. Neither of them conjole me to kill others because they disagree with my beliefs. In fact, Jesus says it best - give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and give unto the Lord what is the Lords. Does the Koran say anything like that?
First, the article that is the subject of this thread is from a Muslim doing exactly what you want, but you and others here ignore him. Second, average Muslims are no different than average people everywhere. Why do average Americans tolerate our high crime rates? Why do average Europeans tolerate the loss of their culture? Why do North Koreans tolerate that horrible regime? Why do Africans tolerate the constant wars and rotten governments they have? Why are the Venezuelans tolerating Chavez? The answer is that most people are busy just surviving, and they feel powerless to affect massive change.
==I ask the question everyone else has asked - where are these moderate Muslims?==
Well I guess the guy who wrote the article is one although I don't know everything about Muslims.
How about YOU read the things that inspired and gave direction to the people who wrote the Constitution.
I have read the Constitution many times. Thank you very much.
We must fight to win, but that isn't always done through superior firepower, and failure to understand that can get us into a world of trouble. We need superior firepower...and the backbone and diplomacy and covert operations that are the envy of the world.
Both sides here are trying to break down the opposing team. THEY are trying to play victim and use the American Press and Congressional powers to cause us to give up completely. WE are trying to support and enhance the credibility and power of moderating forces within Islam to break down the hold of extremists within their religion.
This is a war that reaches far beyond simply nuking everyone who doesn't believe the way I do. It is going to be won or lost on philosophy in the end...just like every other war in the history of mankind.
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