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Neither of the two states women are property, or that a race/group of people are pigs. Neither of them conjole me to kill others because they disagree with my beliefs. In fact, Jesus says it best - give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and give unto the Lord what is the Lords. Does the Koran say anything like that?

"Tabari IX:113 "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."

Ok farm animals then.

Qur'an 4:47 "O you People of the Book[Jews] to whom the Scripture has been given, believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming and verifying what was possessed by you, before We destroy your faces beyond all recognition, turning you on your backs, and curse you as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be executed."

Qur'an 4:160 "For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) in that they hindered many from Allah's Way, that they took usury, though they were forbidden, and that they devoured men's wealth on false pretenses, We have prepared for those among them who reject [Islamic] Faith a painful doom."Ishaq:240 "The Jews are a nation of liars.... The Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people."

Qur'an 33:26 "Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before."

Ishaq:250 "The bestial transformation occurred when Allah turned Jews into apes, despised."

Qur'an 17:7 "We shall rouse Our (Muslim) slaves to shame and ravage you (Jews), disfiguring your faces. They will enter the Temple as before and destroy, laying to waste all that they conquer."

shaq:264 "The Jewish rabbis knew that Muhammad had brought them the truth, but they denied that they knew it. They were obstinate. So Allah revealed, ‘People of the Book, believe in what we have sent down in confirmation of what you had been given before or We will efface your features and turn your face into your ass, cursing you.'"

Bukhari:V4B52N177 "Allah's Apostle said, ‘The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."'"

Try actually reading Islamic scripture.

oops, Misread your post. But Poly can still benifit from Islamic "scripture"

First of all, you probably ought to spend a little time really reading the Old Testament. Jesus was a tremendous moderating force in the world so the perspective in the New Testament is completely different. The Old Testament contains a lot of things that could be construed in the same way as we perceive the Koran. That is not, of course, how we perceive them now. We understand the changes of interpretation, the personalization of salvation that Christ brings us. That doesn't mean we don't take the OT literally, because we certainly do. It's just that we look at that information through the paradigm shift of Christ.

My second point is that of course you agree with the fundamentals of the constitution because it is based on Western ideals, some of which are derived from Judeo-Christian principles. It was created with the ideals of your religion. My question was simply a means to get you to understand how another group of people might look at that differently, and why it is essential for us to work with Muslims that both respect the constitution AND still hold fundamentally Islamic beliefs.

If the Constitution disagreed with what you believed God's law was, which would take higher precedence? Let's say for instance, that the Constitution was changed to say that all couples would be limited to two children, and additional children would have to be aborted. Then what?

The fundamental point I am trying to make here is that this is a clash of civilizations based in religious doctrine. It is Judeo-Christian values vs. Islamic values. Our only chance of winning this thing is to understand the culture of Islam, support and protect and push forward the moderated viewpoints so we can all live together under some basic live and let live principles.

That is obviously a somewhat audacious task. We are essentially fighting a religious war in a humanistic way...which is weird. But what 9/11 taught us is that we can no longer ignore that clash. We have to find our way through the conflict, and while war is certainly one aspect of that conflict, finding ways to help those interested in moderating Islam is another.

To be honest, I am not sure we can actually do it and my personal Biblical approach to this suggests that we probably can not. In many ways, wars about God are not our wars, but struggles between good and evil. But as a Christian, I must fight this , while at the same time remain true to my fundamental belief that all human beings be free to make that choice.

I hope that explains my position clearly.

I just realized I owe you an apology. I started my post in response to you as "Perhaps you should spend some time reading the Old Testament."

That came across as snarky, which is not what I intended it, but certainly how it sounded. You may have already spent a great deal of time reading the OT, and it was an unfair and needlessly confrontational.

I'm sorry.