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Free Will: Now You Have It, Now You Don’t
NY Times ^ | 2 January 2007 | Dennis Overbye

Posted on 01/02/2007 5:08:42 AM PST by shrinkermd

“Is it an illusion? That’s the question,” said Michael Silberstein, a science philosopher at Elizabethtown College in Maryland. Another question, he added, is whether talking about this in public will fan the culture wars.

“If people freak at evolution, etc.,” he wrote in an e-mail message, “how much more will they freak if scientists and philosophers tell them they are nothing more than sophisticated meat machines, and is that conclusion now clearly warranted or is it premature?”

Daniel C. Dennett, a philosopher and cognitive scientist at Tufts University who has written extensively about free will, said that “when we consider whether free will is an illusion or reality, we are looking into an abyss. What seems to confront us is a plunge into nihilism and despair.”

Mark Hallett, a researcher with the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke, said, “Free will does exist, but it’s a perception, not a power or a driving force. People experience free will. They have the sense they are free.

“The more you scrutinize it, the more you realize you don’t have it,” he said.

That is hardly a new thought. The German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer said, as Einstein paraphrased it, that “a human can very well do what he wants, but cannot will what he wants.”

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Unclassified
KEYWORDS: free; freewill; will
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Francis Bacon?


61 posted on 01/03/2007 5:24:50 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Doctor Don

The main weakness in God's creation of man is that He gave us free will.

 

It sure looks that way...

NIV Genesis 2:16-17
 16.  And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
 17.  but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."


NIV Genesis 3:17
   To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, `You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.

 


62 posted on 01/03/2007 5:30:35 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: AndrewC
He (Dr. Wegner) added, “A system a bit more focused on helping people change rather than paying them back for what they’ve done might be a good thing.”

Well, you know Dr. Wegner, there's something out there if you'd just consider it. Only it's a person, not a *system*. Jesus can do what you think needs to be done. Problem is, it includes dying--- to self--- but it's not real popular and some people just can't handle that.

63 posted on 01/03/2007 5:38:12 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Lucas McCain
Upon what grounds does Dennett, and other rabid atheists, attack theist? After all, if there is no free will, how can I be held responsible for what I believe?

Claims of morality is sophistry without some singular higher power defining what it is...

Morality and all of its associated ideals are rooted entirely in the presupposition some higher power defines what is correct for human behavior.

But, since we are all properly obeying the * modern interpretation * of the First Amendment, good & evil isn't the question... Good & bad, right & wrong, etc., etc., ad nausea; are all inherently religious ideals.

The modern interpretation of the First Amendment (according to the liberal-tarians) says government must exorcise all traces of religion and theism from itself. Therefore, government must never consider issues of morality and right and wrong.

So, it becomes a question of benefits versus costs. Fetus killing has its benefits to society, especially if you like to sleep late on Saturdays. But it also has its costs as well. Society (by which I mean, whoever manages to seize power) needs to evaluate these costs and decide accordingly.

The mythical rights of men and women are also meaningless. The very concept of rights is also founded in religion. Since the enlightened person is freed from any superstitions about some "God," they are free from having to worry about "rights." Only raw power counts and humans are just meat puppets for the powerful...

64 posted on 01/03/2007 5:40:43 AM PST by Sir Francis Dashwood (LET'S ROLL!)
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To: AndrewC
Because, in the final analysis, who defines "evil" or "good"(IOW, the Schickelgruber himself used that skeletal definition to derive the final solution.)

Claims of morality is sophistry without some singular higher power defining what it is...

Morality and all of its associated ideals are rooted entirely in the presupposition some higher power defines what is correct for human behavior.

But, since we are all properly obeying the * modern interpretation * of the First Amendment, good & evil isn't the question... Good & bad, right & wrong, etc., etc., ad nausea; are all inherently religious ideals.

The modern interpretation of the First Amendment (according to the liberal-tarians) says government must exorcise all traces of religion and theism from itself. Therefore, government must never consider issues of morality and right and wrong.

So, it becomes a question of benefits versus costs. Fetus killing has its benefits to society, especially if you like to sleep late on Saturdays. But it also has its costs as well. Society (by which I mean, whoever manages to seize power) needs to evaluate these costs and decide accordingly.

The mythical rights of men and women are also meaningless. The very concept of rights is also founded in religion. Since the enlightened person is freed from any superstitions about some "God," they are free from having to worry about "rights." Only raw power counts and humans are just meat puppets for the powerful... Excuse my sarcasm...

65 posted on 01/03/2007 5:48:47 AM PST by Sir Francis Dashwood (LET'S ROLL!)
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To: shrinkermd
“If people freak at evolution, etc.,” he wrote in an e-mail message, “how much more will they freak if scientists and philosophers tell them they are nothing more than sophisticated meat machines, and is that conclusion now clearly warranted or is it premature?”

The mere fact that they are even considering this question proves we are more than 'sophisticated meat machines.'

66 posted on 01/03/2007 9:25:04 AM PST by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: metmom
Then the book itself is utter nonsense and he has nothing of value to say himself.

LOL Perhaps Dawkins is the only proof they've got of the 'meat machine' theory.

67 posted on 01/03/2007 9:26:39 AM PST by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Wonderful; he knows what it feels like?

What a doofus!


68 posted on 01/03/2007 3:47:25 PM PST by editor-surveyor
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To: shrinkermd
Great discussion on this thread, (which I chose to read :-))
Thank you for starting it.
69 posted on 01/06/2007 3:38:40 AM PST by syriacus (If 3000 deaths is an indication to "cut and run" Truman, would have abandoned Korea in 5 weeks.)
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To: shrinkermd
Now the NYT tells me they have no "free will"

The NYT is not telling you that you have no free will. They are quoting Michael Silberstein, a science philosopher at Elizabethtown College in Maryland.

70 posted on 01/06/2007 4:00:04 AM PST by Doe Eyes
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To: Lucas McCain
After all, if there is no free will, how can I be held responsible for what I believe?

Is what you believe the result of free will or the fear of punishment?
.
71 posted on 01/06/2007 9:51:14 PM PST by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: mugs99

It makes no difference. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.


72 posted on 01/07/2007 5:35:18 AM PST by Lucas McCain (The day may come when the courage of men will fail...but not this day.)
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To: Lucas McCain

Sure it does. It's not free will if you're forced.


73 posted on 01/07/2007 10:35:05 AM PST by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: Dogrobber
This is just another aspect of the Darwinian anti-religionist viewpoint. Man is a product of evolution and is nothing more than a meat machine dancing to the tune of his hormones and genetic coding. God does not exist.

The last statement lost me. God may have created everything.

One can believe in an intelligent design behind evolution.

74 posted on 01/07/2007 1:34:33 PM PST by secretagent
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To: shrinkermd

I choose to have it.


75 posted on 01/07/2007 1:35:35 PM PST by JCEccles
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To: mugs99
Sure it does. It's not free will if you're forced.

Fear of punishment doesn't rob anyone of free will. It merely informs them of the likelihood of unpleasant consequences if they do break the law, are caught and punished. They still have free will to disregard the risk of unpleasant consequences.

Many of them do. The prisons are full of such people. The really celver ones, like Bill Clinton, finds way to cheat the risk.

76 posted on 01/07/2007 1:41:01 PM PST by JCEccles
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To: CharlesWayneCT
That's just the most obvious example of religious infringement on "free will". If God has appointed the hour of my death, I don't have the free will to choose to kill myself.

You absolutely have free will and you absolutely have no free will, both. This seems impossible, and our minds cannot grasp it.

Just another sign of God's super-intelligence.

I just thought this up, but it sounds like something others may have invented before.

77 posted on 01/07/2007 1:50:29 PM PST by secretagent
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To: TR Jeffersonian

ping


78 posted on 01/07/2007 1:52:09 PM PST by kalee (No burka for me....EVER!)
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To: secretagent; JCEccles
You absolutely have free will and you absolutely have no free will, both...and our minds cannot grasp it.

And you're absolutely right.
.
79 posted on 01/08/2007 7:54:50 AM PST by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: shrinkermd

>>...“how much more will they freak if scientists and philosophers tell them they are nothing more than sophisticated meat machines...<<

I FIRMLY believe we are sophisticated meat machines. Or, to put it bluntly, the MOST sophisticated meat machines on the planet.

But to be more clear, I believe we OCCUPY the most sophisticated meat machines on this planet. And these machines are designed to drastically enhance our experience and brief time here.

I am to my "meat machine" what a pilot is to his airplane, or a crane operator is to his crane.

I don't see the problem here. It is what I have believed about half my adult life. The body (including the brain) dies, for crying out loud.


80 posted on 01/08/2007 8:07:22 AM PST by RobRoy (Islam is a greater threat to the world today than Nazism was in 1938.)
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