Posted on 01/01/2007 4:25:08 PM PST by yochanan
Why do evangelicals support Israel so strongly? Is the American Jews' fear of fundamentalist Christianity based on constitutional principle, or social and cultural snobbery and political partisanship?
A Match Made in Heaven is a funny, readable, book. It is the most entertaining way to struggle with questions such as "Why do evangelicals support Israel so strongly? Is their philo-Semitism just a front for their true purpose to convert Jews? Do the evangelicals, as their opponents charge, really want to use the Jews as cannon fodder at the battle of Armageddon? Or are they simply responding to the biblical commandment to love Israel? Finally, is the American Jews' fear of fundamentalist Christianity based on constitutional principle, or social and cultural snobbery and political partisanship?"
We will discuss these questions this week, and readers, as usual, can send their questions to rosnersdomain@haaretz.co.il.
How do America's Orthodox Jews relate to Zionist Evangelicals?
Joe Feld
Paradoxically, Orthodox Jews have the fewest problems with a Jewish-Evangelical relationship.
For one thing, a lot of Orthodox Jews and Evangelicals share conservative social and political positions. Orthodox Jews, for example, are rarely troubled by church-state separation issues. They send their own kids to parochial schools; they're glad to get government money via faith based programs; many are opposed to abortion, and they tend not to be too concerned about the good opinion of the "international community" - ie, Europeans.
Most Orthodox Jews also have a stronger connection to, and concern about, Israel than the secular or liberal majority. Orthodox Jews are more likely to care about a candidates' position on Israel. As a Democratic activist told me, if Cynthia McKinney ran for President as a Democrat, she'd get fifty percent of the Jewish vote.
Some Orthodox Jews are opposed to any
(Excerpt) Read more at haaretz.com ...
The anti-Christ isn't going to 'rapture' anyone...If it happens, it won't be Satan's doing...
I don't believe it was a slight glimpse...The book says he spent 3 years learning from Jesus...Is it any wonder why Paul kept getting into situations where his life was threatened...He was hoping for the 1st bus home...
Post #186...Exactly on the mark...The Christian church will be in Heaven during the Tribulation...There will be 'other' churches still on earth going thru the Tribulation...
The anti-Christ isn't going to 'rapture' anyone...If it happens, it won't be Satan's doing...
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No he won't rapture anyone but he will deceive them into believing he will. We're being set up for that event now. If you are a rapture believer just remember that when he comes if you aren't in a spirit body then he isn't the He we have been waiting for. Matthew 24:4. Let no Man deceive you. 24:13 Endure to the end, the same shall be saved.
Post 186 - where did you get that from? I'd love a link. Anyway, it makes a lot of assumptions, such as the elect mentioned in Matt 24 are Israel, not the church - based on what?
Another place - God doesn't need the church to restore Israel, therefore it won't be there? Total assumption. And God doesn't NEED the church for anything, now or ever. He uses believers for plenty, but only to demonstrate His glory, not because He can't accomplish His will regardless.
And I still don't see how post 186 explains how God "deals with Israel differently" during the tribulation.
Let me ask you this question - is Israel part of the bride?
No, He preserved Noah through the flood.
And did He destroy Egypt after He led the Israelites out? No, rather He preserved Israel through the plagues of Egypt (which have some striking similarities to the events of Revelation, by the way), and only at the end, after all their homes were marked by the blood (again, similar to Rev 9:4) and God struck the firstborn of the rest, did He removed them out of Egypt.
I misunderstood your point at first. But, Yes, Christians created many many of their own Martyrs. The 100 Years war, was a horror that crossed back and forth across Europe and Jews were not the only people to fall under the horrors of life in Europe.
This is absolutely correct and is needed to understand this in context. The Holocaust, as horrible, and evil as it was at its core, was not just visited on Jews but Gypsies, Gays, Roman Catholics, and as you widen your view.. nearly 50 million people died in World War II. It just wasn't as well organized. Or as breathtakingly effective. "Never Again" became hollow when we stood by and watched as Pol Pot murdered millions of Cambodians, and the Massacres i Rwanda, and now Darfur.
Liberals who say they hate war, hate stopping true evil like confronting Saddam Hussein, and then wonder why the US is powerless to intervene in situations like Cambodia. Defeating the US's will to win in Vietnam led to Cambodia and the silent but real killing fields of South Vietnam. Liberals do not accept the horror that they themselves have aided and abetted or the horror that they propose to allow in the future.
Well, actually, it does.
Just from Galatians:
6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."[b] 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. -- note that it says that you are a child of Abraham if you are of faith.
14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus -- Gentile believers are recipients of the blessing promised to Abraham
16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed,"[g] meaning one person, who is Christ. -- the promises were given to the "seed" and those who are incorporated into the "seed" (plural vs singular noted)
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
-- This passage is most telling. The old distinction of Jew and Greek is now done away with altogether, and ALL who believe are "Abraham's seed" and "heirs according to the promise." All the promises of Abraham are, and were intended for, not a national group of ethnic persons, but a true worldwide body including both Jew and all others.
WE are the true recipients of the promises, and there is no reason to argue that we are not, nor that the "real" promises have to be "fulfilled" by some wooden literalism.
The NT claims the right to re-interpret the Abrahamic promises, and does so. The covenant salvation began in the garden, post fall. The "seed" was promised as one who would undo the effects of the evil one and crush his head. That "seed" motif was simply picked up in Abraham. The promise PREVIOUSLY GIVEN is the same promise given to Abraham, just amplified and specified as coming through the particularized offspring of Israel. This is the SAME PROMISE given in figurative and pictorial language to Moses..., the law and the sacrificial system were not some "other way of salvation" but simply amplifications of the necessity and the glory of the coming sacrifice for sins, along with the picture of "God with his people" (the temple). Jesus said that the entire Old Testament, from Moses through the prophets was concerned exclusively about HIM. Not about some series of failures of men to cooperate with God, but about Jesus.
This, and only this, is why it is worthwhile even discussing the issue. I have great relationships with many of my dispensationalist brothers. Many of them are better Christians than I am, so it ain't like I am saying the theology makes me "better." I do truly believe, though, that seeing the Bible as one grand unified message of God coming to save and dwell with his people is done harm by the insistence on finding different plans and peoples, and (from some, not all) actually multiple means of salvation. As much as I love my brothers, this is, I believe, truly an affront to the claim that the one message through the bible is the grace of God through Christ offered in faith.
Please don't hate me for saying so, as I don't believe you are wrongHEARTED, just wrongMINDED.
Back to your original objection, those are just a few of the passages that identify the NT Church as "Israel." I have a bunch more if you need them.
Love and Grace. DoP
It is interesting to look at the history of John Darby himself. He was a passionate follower of Christ, and had won more Irish Catholics to Jesus in his lifetime than the entire missionary effort of the Church of England over the past 300 years (since the Reformation). He returned to London to "raise support"(some things never change, do they?) and rejoice in the goodness of God in blessing his efforts. You can imagine his shock and dismay when he read of several ads taken out which said -in effect- that if you wanted to see the Irish brought into submission to the crown, then you should support the work of John Darby who was doing such great work in bringing them into submission to Christ, and the Anglican Church. William Magee, the archbishop of Dublin, shortly ruled that all the converts of Darby had to swear allegience to King George as the king of Ireland. Of course, this effectively destroyed any future ministry for him. He left the ministry of the Anglican Church and was a bitter, dissappointed, disillusioned man. He especially was disenchanted with any linkage between the church and state (as one would imagine). I think his radical disjunction between the theocratic OT and the NT grew from how greviously he was sinned against by the state church.
If God could not use crooked sticks to draw straight lines, where would we all be?
It is also true that pride at being "in Christ" is just plain wrong. I fear that the charge (if it is a charge) might just stick. I am proud of most things. It is a hateful thing to Christ, who died because of that very pride and arrogance.
"Mercy and grace" he said to himself "Gotta remember that! Mercy and grace!"
While the priestly order contained Roman collaborators, it is an error to claim that Jesus was ONLY addressing them. John repeatedly addresses the priests AND the Saducees (the 1st century version of religious skeptics) AND the Pharisees. While you may level charges against the priestly order they were nevertheless "God's annointed" and worthy of respect for the office they held (Jesus told them to continue in temple worship and "do what they tell you"). Furthermore, the Pharisees were NOT Roman collaborators, but were the PERES (set apart) ones. They wanted no part of Roman rule and could not be part of the group you mentioned above. They were simply Jewish scholars who thought that being Jewish meant they had some kind of inside track on being God's people. It was an error then, and it is an error now. Again, Jesus corrected this error by telling them they were NOT children of Abraham, because they did not do as Abraham did, which was listen to Jesus and "rejoice to see his day." Those who are of faith are children of Abraham, and no one else. So says Jesus.
No more than any other atheistic, secular state, as not all "Israel" is "Israel" if you catch my drift.
There is one thing you can do though that I feel proves your theory wrong. Look at world politics and modern history.
Not trying to be snooty, but lets NOT do that. I prefer to stick to the bible for my theology, and have done so ever since I got disillusioned with the headline mongering antics of Hal Lindsey and Pat Robertson.
Furthermore, if the modern day Jewish state is TRULY in covenant with God, then why do they treat Palestinian Christians (some of the few Arab brothers in Christ in the world) like absolute scum? They make no distinction between them and the muslims, and oppress, humiliate, and degrade them. They do the same with the Marionite Christians of Lebanon. To be sure, they are "beloved for the sake of the fathers" and I have to admit scratching my head over the events around 1948. Further, they are a functioning democracy (if socialistic) in a morass of despots, and an island of enlightenment in a sea of barbarism.
I support them against most of the Arabs surrounding them for the sole reason that most of the Muslims around them are so unblinkingly and unreasoningly stupid in their hatred for the Jews.
That said, it does not make faith from unfaith, nor does it somehow transform a nation of covenant breakers into that of covenant affirmers. You say they will convert en masse as a nation after some event known as a secret "rapture?" Here's to hoping it (the conversion) comes sooner rather than later. Here is to hoping that the revival thus engendered reaches me and my soul-dead brethren as well.
As for a secret coming of Jesus to get "plan b" out of the way so God can get back to the earlier business at hand, I say it is like some contractor insisting that the scaffolding was the REAL objective, and the building constructed using the scaffolding needs to be torn down so that we can get the scaffolding gold plated or something. Not only that, you want a new TEMPLE? With SACRIFICES? After the one final and true and perfect sacrifice has been offered? I will have to get back to you on that one.
The post certainly does explain how God deals differently with the Church and Israel, and if you don't see it it is because you don't want to; it conflicts with what you think you know.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and wait until the Tribulation to find out if the Church and Israel are different or the same.
We'll find out soon enough. Bible prophecy is being fulfilled on almost an hourly basis and we'll all know very soon if the Church and Israel are the same thing or different entities.
When Jesus describes the rapture and then tells us to "comfort one another with these words", where is the comfort if the Church is to go through the judgment that God has reserved for those who hate Him and reject Him?
Even if nothing else was said in Scripture about the Church being raptured before the Tribulation, this alone would prove it to me.
My apologies to anyone who feels I might have "hijacked" the thread. Not my intention.
I think I should make this note. I never will forget hitchiking through Costa Rica and then to Colombia (via Santa Marta) with an Israeli who fought in the 73 Yom Kippur war. I was travelling, and so was he, and we became road buddies. One night we sat down and went thru the promises of God from Adam, thru Abraham, thru the Mosaic pictures of Jesus, the Davidic prophecies, the prophets, and the claims of Jesus that these guys were all talking about HIM. As he read those passages, it was difficult for me not to weep as I considered that he was truly a branch broken off thru unbelief. I prayed then, and have prayed on and off over the years, that God would take the stammering, still-addle-headed-from-all-the-dope, explanations of the covenant of salvation and apply it to this lost son of Abraham. I could never "wish myself cut off from Christ" for his sake, but I got just a glimmer of that passionate love that we should have for the Jews during those few days. I wonder what the final day will bring. Here's hoping for "all Israel to be saved" sooner rather than later.
God has a plan for the Church and a plan for Israel and both plans will be worked out in His time.
I have a dear friend who I love who is an Orthodox rabbi- and a couple of weeks ago I asked him if he believed that he has an eternal soul and he said to me, "to be honest- I don't really know". I pray for this rabbi every day- that the blindness that is upon the Jewish people right now will be removed and that he will come to know that he needs his Messiah- Jesus Christ. But never do I try to "evangelize" him. I let him see Christ through me- and we have long conversations about things and I give him my point of view through the prism of knowing Christ- but I will not bring Christ up unless he initiates it. And I will never deny to him (or anyone) that I know Christ as my Savior.
Anyway, I believe that God will save my friend- but in His time and in His way. I believe that through my prayers God will see my friend and his family through the Tribulation and I believe that my friend will be saved at Jesus' Second Coming, just like God promised.
God has a special love for His chosen people- He has never abandoned them and He never will.
We're obviously on the same page on this issue (your post 187 and my post 102).
Kind of scary though, because it really makes Fundamentalism just another sect (although, my disclaimer is that I don't reject the fundamentals of Fundamentalism.)
The Niagra Conferences were called in order to discuss the "fundamentals", and when they started out they were pretty much on target. Then Scofield and the other Dispensationalist Pre-Trib's took over.
Then how do you explain Hosea? Because she played the harlot by going after false gods, God issued the house of Israel a bill of divorcement (Jer 3:8 also), but promised to remarry her one day (see Hosea 2 and others).
In fact, Hosea, and what God instructed him to do by marrying his prostitute wife and naming his children as such, is a picture of the relationship between God and the house of Israel.
Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. 10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
Interesting how Peter applies that very thing to the new believers to whom he was writing -
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
So what's the deal - does God marry Israel and Jesus marry the church or what? Or maybe there's just one bride after all.
The post certainly does explain how God deals differently with the Church and Israel, and if you don't see it it is because you don't want to; it conflicts with what you think you know.
I used to be a pretrib rapture dispensationalist, and it was only through prayer and intense study throughout the whole of scripture that I no longer am.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and wait until the Tribulation to find out if the Church and Israel are different or the same.
Fair enough. I only hope we both keep an open mind, as we see through a glass darkly after all, with flawed, human eyes.
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