Posted on 01/01/2007 4:25:08 PM PST by yochanan
Why do evangelicals support Israel so strongly? Is the American Jews' fear of fundamentalist Christianity based on constitutional principle, or social and cultural snobbery and political partisanship?
A Match Made in Heaven is a funny, readable, book. It is the most entertaining way to struggle with questions such as "Why do evangelicals support Israel so strongly? Is their philo-Semitism just a front for their true purpose to convert Jews? Do the evangelicals, as their opponents charge, really want to use the Jews as cannon fodder at the battle of Armageddon? Or are they simply responding to the biblical commandment to love Israel? Finally, is the American Jews' fear of fundamentalist Christianity based on constitutional principle, or social and cultural snobbery and political partisanship?"
We will discuss these questions this week, and readers, as usual, can send their questions to rosnersdomain@haaretz.co.il.
How do America's Orthodox Jews relate to Zionist Evangelicals?
Joe Feld
Paradoxically, Orthodox Jews have the fewest problems with a Jewish-Evangelical relationship.
For one thing, a lot of Orthodox Jews and Evangelicals share conservative social and political positions. Orthodox Jews, for example, are rarely troubled by church-state separation issues. They send their own kids to parochial schools; they're glad to get government money via faith based programs; many are opposed to abortion, and they tend not to be too concerned about the good opinion of the "international community" - ie, Europeans.
Most Orthodox Jews also have a stronger connection to, and concern about, Israel than the secular or liberal majority. Orthodox Jews are more likely to care about a candidates' position on Israel. As a Democratic activist told me, if Cynthia McKinney ran for President as a Democrat, she'd get fifty percent of the Jewish vote.
Some Orthodox Jews are opposed to any
(Excerpt) Read more at haaretz.com ...
"But, most important is Genesis 12:3--"I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them who curse thee." That's God talking about Israel, and if you read the Bible literally, as they do, God's commandment is all you need."
Says it all.
As far as I know this is the second mystery to which Paul alludes. There are some things which we are not allowed to know. For example, the other mystery of iniquity was revealed and Paul also refers to in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, I knew a man in Christ,above 14 years ago, (whether in the flesh or out of the body, I cannnot tell; God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.And I knew such a man whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell; God knoweth) How he was caught into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for man to utter. Of such an one will I glory; yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
In other words, Paul was given a slight glimpse of heaven but what he saw remains a mystery to us for now.
One hundred and twenty four years later the majority of the rest of the Israelites of Judea were deported to Babylon before the fall of the 1st Temple.
The Babylonians believed in ethnic displacement to control territories. These people were settled in what is now Modern Iraq. A large number of Jews lived in exile in Babylon and later Persia long after the fall of the Second Temple and the revolt and massacre of the Jews in Judea by the Romans.
However, a little known fact is that over 10% of the population of the whole Roman Empire at the beginning of the common era was Jewish! Primarily Hellenistic Jews that were very active in Evangelizing pegans to faith in God.
However, much of what these people actually believed and taught is lost because Judiasm was outlawed by the Romans after the revolt of 161 CE.
These populations were carved up and assimilated into Christianity, Rabbinic Judaism, and in the middle-east, Islam.
The Kurds have a strong genetic link to modern Jews and these people probably have the strongest claim to being the lost tribes of anyone if they were so inclined to claim this. A death sentence in the current world.
During the Dark Ages an empire called the Khazars adopted Judaism as the state religion and this Empire defended and helped Byzantium survive attacks from the Slavs and the Huns, but for some reason the Russians and the Byzantine Empire conspired to destroy the Khazars and this was the end of them.
The Khazars lived in the Caucasus. There was alot of speculation that the Eastern European Jews, the Ashkenazim, were descendants of the Khazars but this has been proven to to be incorrect by genetic studies.
Recently, genetic studies have shown that the old tribes of England were not displaced by the Anglo-Saxons but that they stayed in place.
See Reunited at last! This is David, the brother I lost just 1,000 years ago
Another interesting article is
This is an interesting article that traces the apparent widely differing origins of the English and Welsh/Scots/Irish people.
Ummmm. Maybe where the promises of Abraham are said to be made to his SEED?? (just so we won't miss it, Paul argues on the basis of the singular vs. plural). The promises are to Abraham's SEED, and not simply to his progeny. That SEED is defined by the Holy Spirit NOT to be the physical offspring of Abraham, but Christ, and through him those who are of the faith of Abraham.
Just so we won't miss it, the "unrevokable promises" of the covenant do NOT consist of the area from the Nile to Lebo Hamath. In fact, Romans 4 says clearly that Abraham was promised that he would be heir of the WORLD, not just the eretz.
There is nothing, not one promise anywhere, that God will "fail to fulfill" if Israel is driven into the sea and never has an independent existence again. They are all fulfilled in these latter days in the "Israel of God."
Finally, even IF there is some kind of national/seminational restoration of Israel as a geopolitical entity some time in the future, there is absolutely no way they can, at present, claim any kind of special status before God. Jesus said "if Abraham were your father, you would listen to me" and that says it all, as far as I am concerned. Unbelieving Jews are no different, no better, have no more special status, and are no more in covenant with God than any other unbeliever. They are NOT children of Abraham, although my prayer for them is that there would be a great turning of Jews to their Messiah. Some of your more optimistic post and a mil folks do believe that after the "fulness of the Gentiles" there will be an even greater fulness that is like "life from the dead."
God knows we could use it.
It is interesting that you mention Jeremiah 31. Jeremiah 31 is actually quoted in the NT as being fulfilled NOW, and not in some later dispensational era. I am not saying there CANNOT be a future and "literal" (whatever that means) fulfillment in a bunch of Jews. What I *AM* saying is that Hebrews 8 makes it clear that this prophesy has been fulfilled (he refers to THIS covenant as present, not some future Jewish deal), and it is not "demanded" that there be some future fulfillment. Indeed the entire New Testament demands the right to re-interpret and broaden the promises in the OT and claims they are all fulfilled today. It is only when you bring a preconceived eschatological rubric to play that you can't let the NT interpret the OT promises as it claims to do.
Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.
If pretribulationism is indeed the teaching of Scripture, then we would expect that passages dealing with the tribulation would consistently make no mention of the church. This is exactly what we find. However, Israel is mentioned often throughout these texts. Dr. Robert Gromacki has studied the New Testament book of Revelation, chapters 4-19, which gives the most detailed overview of the seven-year tribulation in all the Bible. He has shown the following:
"However, there is a strange silence of the term in chapters 4-19. That fact is especially noteworthy when you contrast that absence with its frequent presence in the first three chapters. One good reason for this phenomenon is the absence of the true church and true evangelical churches in the seven years preceding the Second Coming. The true believers of the church have gone into the presence of Christ in heaven before the onset of the events of the seven year period. The church is not mentioned during the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments because the church is not here during the outpouring of these judgments.
The Bible teaches that the tribulation is a time of preparation for Israel's restoration and conversion (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:3-11; Zech. 12:10).1 While the church will experience tribulation in general during this present age (John 15:18-25; 16:33; 2 Tim. 3:10-13), she is never mentioned as participating in Israel's time of trouble, which includes the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, and the Wrath of God.
The Tribulation does not deal with the Church at all, but with the purification of Israel. It is not the "time of the Church's trouble," but the "time of Jacob's trouble." The emphasis of the Tribulation is primarily Jewish. This fact is borne out by Old Testament Scriptures (Deut. 4: 30; Jer. 30: 7; Ezek. 20: 37; Dan. 12:1; Zech. 13:8-9), by the Olivet Discourse of Christ (Matt. 24:9-26), and by the book of Revelation itself (Rev. 7:4-8; 12:1-2; 17, etc.). It concerns "Daniel's people," the coming of "false Messiah," the preaching of the "gospel of the kingdom," flight on the "sabbath," the temple and the "holy place," the land of Judea, the city of Jerusalem, the twelve "tribes of the children of Israel," the "son of Moses," "signs" in the heavens, the "covenant" with the Beast, the "sanctuary," the "sacrifice and the oblation" of the temple ritual.
These all speak of Israel and clearly demonstrate that the Tribulation is largely a time when God deals with His ancient people prior to their entrance into the promised kingdom. The many Old Testament prophecies yet to be fulfilled for Israel further indicate a future time when God will deal with this nation (Deut. 30:1-6; Jer. 30:8-10, etc.)."
The "elect" referred to in Matthew 24 refers to Israel, not to people who have accepted Christ during the past 2500-year church age.
Another purpose for the tribulation is that it is a time of God's wrath upon a Christ-rejecting world and a time of revenge for Gentile treatment of Israel.
Moreover, it is evident that the Tribulation also concerns God's judgment upon Christ-rejecting Gentile nations. Babylon, which "made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Rev. 14:8), shall herself "be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her" (Rev. 18:8). The "cities of the nations" shall fall, after which Satan shall be bound "that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled" (Rev. 20:3). God's judgment falls likewise upon the individual wicked, the kings of the earth, the great, the rich, and the mighty, every bond man and every free man (Rev. 6:15-17). It falls upon all who blaspheme the name of God and repent not to give Him glory (Rev. 16:9).
Wicked men, godless nations, suffering Israel--these may all be found in Revelation 6-18; but one looks in vain for the Church of Christ, which is His body, until he reaches the nineteenth chapter. There she is seen as the heavenly bride of Christ, and when He returns to earth to make His enemies His footstool, she is seen returning with Him (I Thess. 3: 13).
Such a time of judgment does not require the church, who has not rejected Christ, to be present. With the church in heaven during the tribulation, it enables God's focus to be on Israel as His Divine instrument through which He acts. This program was predicted by the Lord before Joshua and Israel ever entered the Promised Land. Notice the predicted pattern:
... then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you. (Deut. 30:3)
And the LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it . . . (Deut. 30:5)
And the LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the LORD, and observe all His commandments which I command you today. (Deut. 30:7-8)
Zechariah speaks of the Lord's retribution upon the nations as a time when "the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem . . . in that day that I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." (Zech. 12:8-9) Once again the focus is upon Israel, in this case Jerusalem, not the church.
The book of Revelation provides a graphic depiction of God's judgment upon an unbelieving world, often called "earth dwellers." As God prosecutes His judgment upon the "earth dwellers," John records periodic pauses by our Lord as He evaluates the response of mankind to His judgment before going onto the next phase. It is as if the Lord inflicts a series of judgments and then surveys the landscape to see if, like Ninevah in the days of Jonah, there is repentance so that He can suspend prosecution of the war. Unlike Ninevah in the days of Jonah, the "earth dwellers" do not relent in the wake of "the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:16), so our Lord proceeds to the next phase of His battle. Every step of the way, the "earth dwellers" would "not repent of the works of their hands" (Rev. 9:20) Instead of worshipping Christ, "the earth and those who dwell in it . . . worship the first beast" (Rev. 13:12). Instead of repentance they "blasphemed God" (Rev. 16:21). Finally, "all the nations were deceived" (Rev. 18:23) resulting in the santanic notion that the armies of the world must march against Jerusalem-God's city-and Israel-His people. This results in the basis for the second coming of Christ, which is to rescue Israel from the world's armies who are striking out at God by invading His people. Such a scenario does not demand or require the church and so she will not be there. We can see that the purpose of the tribulation revovles around God's plan for Israel, not the church.
Since God's purpose for the tribulation is to restore Israel (Jer. 30:3, 10) and judge the Gentiles (Jer. 30:11), it is clear that this purpose does not include the church. This is one of the reasons why she will be taken to heaven before this time. The church's hope is a heavenly one, not participation in the culmination and restoration of God's plan for His earthly people-Israel.
There is no Scriptural evidence whatsoever for the church remaining on earth during the Tribulation.
If I understand you, it is a good question. The bible has not changed, but men's doctrines have.
NO ONE can read the Bible itself and claim it points to evidence for a secret "rapture" that fits the LaHaye/dispensational mindset. That is why NO ONE EVER DID until Margaret McDonald, a charismatic milkmaid who met with the Irvingites (from Edward Irving a presbyterian minister "spoke in tongues" and was defrocked and condemned as a heretic for some of his other views). She had a "vision" in which she claimed that Jesus would not come back openly, but secretly for his special ones.
That would not have caught on any more than some of the other "surely, thus saith the Lord" stuff that goes on in some circles, had it not been for Darby and the Plymouth Brethren, who sometimes attended the Irvingite meetings. This all has been detailed on the web, and we don't need to go into it now.
It is just to say that it is a NEW doctrine, precisely because there is no BIBLICAL evidence for it. The older fathers interpreted I Thess 4 as simply the coming of Christ to judge the world. It is only if you have some extrabiblical hermeneutic (a "rule" by which we interpret the bible) that prophecy MUST be literal that you come up with a need for such a doctrine. If you allow the Holy Spirit to tell us how to interpret OT prophecy, you go to the NT and see how God interprets it. That means, when the older covenant promises are claimed to be fulfilled in the new, you don't go on a rant about how you are "spiritualizing away" the promises, but you just let the New Testament, and not CI Scofield, tell you how the promises should be interpreted.
If you do THAT, I am confident you will never come up with some idea of a "secret rapture," because there simply is no biblical evidence for it.
Thanks very much.
See post 186.
You're most welcome.
And considering the current status of the house of Israel (dispersed among the nations), no doubt many of them, ignorant of their own ancestry, have indeed become believers in Jesus under the new covenant promised to them so many centuries ago.
Take this for example -
John 11:47-52, "Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad."
What is yet future is a massive physical regathering into the land and a rejoining of both houses, with many Gentile companions. Again, we're grafted into THEIR tree.
That is...., unless you are unwilling to make a radical and unbiblical disjunction between the church in the OT and the church in the NT, and refuse to claim that they are, in essence, two different peoples with two different earthly destinies and two different modalities of grace, and, according to all of the "older" disp writers, two different objects of faith (Scofield, Chafer, Pentecost, and Ryrie...., I haven't been around the newer guys as much). It is not your textual citations that I have a problem with (although we could talk some), as much as the a priori assumption of a dispensationalist hermeneutic, as if there were no other possibilities of scriptural thought.
You need to face the possibility that there is more than one answer to the question, "who is 'Israel'?" Until you can come to the conclusion that there is real, substantive, biblical reasoning why Christians might say that NT "Israel" is ALL the people of God, Jews and Gentiles alike, then you really don't understand the issues.
The "church" as defined by God are those who have placed their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as Savior. The church is not some ragtag bunch of this or that club or nationality or group that men wish could be a "church" but never will be.
It's really very simple and I, again, will go with who God states is His church, not what fallen mankind claims.
I was referring specifically to the surge in missionary activity, with the formation of Missions such as the China Inland Mission, TEAM, Sudan Interior Mission.
J. Hudson Taylor of CIM, and Frederick Fransen of TEAM (then known as the Scandinavian Alliance Mission), and a group of young men of the day were all affected by the idea that at "any moment" Christ could come and they felt the urgency to evangelize as much of the world as possible.
Those who didn't promote missions began their careers as Evangelists, Dwight Moody among them, although he may have been a little late, or reluctant coming to embrace it fully, or ambivalent about Pre- or Post-.
Still at work, so I might be a little disjointed in reply.
Yes it does. Many times we're told that believers become part of Israel - Romans 11, Gal 3, Eph 2, Eph 3:5-6.
We're grafted into THEIR tree.
Yes, we are grafted into the offer of salvation, which was offered to the Jewish people first and then to us, but as Christians we never become Jews or part of the Jewish nation of Israel.
And God deals with Israel separately from how He deals with the Church. Christians are believers in Jesus now, and Jews will become believers in Jesus later, when He appears at His Second Coming, but Christians and Jews are two separate entities at present and through the Tribulation.
One of the articles you mention I have read and the other I just skimmed through and will go back to again. My belief comes partly from "Missing Links Discovered in Assyrian Tablets" and various Biblical references. God said He would scatter them - He did, God said they would be as numerous as the sands of the sea - if so, where are they? Their descendants have to be somewhere. Jesus said, "I am not sent, but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel". Would He come to a people that did not exist today? I believe those of the House of Israel are in the Christian nations of today. It certainly isn't something that must be believed to be a Christian but I find it a highly probable occurance. Regardless, one day, the 2 Houses, of Israel and Judah will be back together. Ezekiel 37:16-19
Sometimes they try to forget and to hide because the obligation is not easy, or without risk.
Many Jews however, hold on to this obligation despite all, against all the world has set against them. The Greeks, the Romans, the Christians, the Muslims, and the Nazi's, the Communists and the Modern day Secularists all have had their crack at trying to kill or convert the Jews. They have had some success, but at a terrible price mostly.
Those who don't deny God or the Bible must recognize these promises as binding and that is both upon the Jews and on God because God doesn't do take backs.
God spoke directly to all of the people to establish this bond forever and undeniably in the souls of all Jews and it cries out to them. This is why apostates and unbelievers are not rejected as non-Jews, rejecting a promise is not the same as not being obligated.
I believe that God has put Christianity here on earth for some purpose as well as Islam and all of the other religions. Sometimes you get a glint of what this is about. But, its fleeting.
There is much in the story of Joseph that allows Jews to understand the action of God, misery preparing the way for joy, war laying the foundations for peace, injustice and betrayal providing the opportunities for compassion and opportunity.
If Jews seem to hate all war and conflict, its because they have been asked to dig their own graves so many times, irregardless, of which side they choose. But, this dithering comes at an even greater cost, so choose they must. For many are haunted by the fruits of dithering and not condemning evil and facing it in the horrors of the last Century.
American Jews fear oppression and death, the same as always. In Europe, Christian revivals were accompanied by oppression and death. Its a hard lesson to forget. But, Jews make a greater mistake believing Athiests are better friends or that a Godless state is a better place. For God, will not allow it. For in the vacuum, is not peace but evil.
How does God deal with Israel separately?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.