Posted on 12/27/2006 10:37:43 PM PST by Northern Alliance
Who can forget the scenes of jubilant Iraqis in the streets of Baghdad in 2003? Who can forget the cheerful Iraqis around the falling statue of Saddam, symbolising the fall of the dictator’s regime?
Indeed, the majority of Iraqis were supportive to the efforts of liberating Iraq from the tight grip of Iraq’s worst dictator. That includes the vast majority of Kurds (about 20% of the total population) and the Shia (about 60% of the total population) as well as many sunni Arabs (about 20% of the total population). All these groups had suffered badly and sadly at the hands of Saddam’s Baath regime. They considered the war as a liberation war, rather than an occupation of Iraq. The American and British forces fought skilfully and won an easy military victory with minimal losses. Although Saddam and his Baath regime collapsed having provided minimal resistance, the jubilation soon started to fade away as the situation deteriorated rapidly. With so many killed, kidnapped and so many scandals spreading around, even the most sincere supporters of the war had to reconsider their positions and admit that Iraq is in a miss. But did it have to be?
The success or failure of America in Iraq is of significance to both America and Iraq, the final outcome from this war may have a lasting effect on America’s standing in future conflicts. I can take this even further and say that many of the principles of the western civilization may be at stake. Failure in Iraq may signify that the seeds of destruction of the western civilization may be growing faster than had been previously thought. Let us briefly review the most recent history on this.
(Excerpt) Read more at islam-watch.org ...
Leave them to their fates and let them stew in their primitive religion and cultural backwardness.
The problem is
1 (as I've said many times before) The world is becoming a smaller and more interconnected place every day, and we cannot allow these dark disconnected places to remain rgat way.
2 They don't stay in one place. It's (what?) a 12 hour plane ride from (say) Islamabad to NY.
The days are long gone, if they ever were, where you can just raise the draw bridge, lowwer the porcullis, and man the barricades.
And another 600K on top of that number, at least, who are happy to allow that 300K to be active-- even if they don't directly participate themselves.
Our troops are being murdered because they are restrained; worrying about the hearts & minds of Iraqis and the world at large.
I can only assume you are talking about this. My question still applies.
It appears that you like others here don't seem to understand the why, how, and time frame of Iraq.
Why To establish a freely elected liberal government in Iraq. To provide an alternative to the dicatatorships that exist, or the jihadist ideology. You will recall that shortly after 9-11 the usual suspects started barking Root Causes Root Causes Root causes, of course by that they meant it's all our fault, but the President actually looked at what has being said by those in the area, one of their major complaints was lack of freedom. So he decided to address this....hence OIF. We didn't go in there just to kill a bunch of ragheads.
How to give the Iraqi people shot at freedom, and at this point given the history and culture they're not doing too bad. Now you may disagree but if you go to the Iraqi blogs & the milblogs you'll see a different story than the one we see everyday in the DBM.
Time Frame How many times has the Persident and others dsaid this is a generational war? You think they're kidding? They're not. As I've said before this is the cold war and it's 1952.
13.7 million, according to an earlier post.
Good point. Thank you!
Do you believe everything all Muslims say?
You can assume anything you like, however, I answered your question and mentioned other points which you have no answers to. Admit it! Here they are AGAIN:
PC policies, the hearts & minds crap, acceding to Maliki (Sadr's proxy) "orders" by releasing a captured Mahdi army commander and taking down the US check points around Sadr City, etc.
It appears that you like others here don't seem to understand the why, how, and time frame of Iraq.
Valin, don’t use big words, I'm not intimidated.
Nope, it's YOU like some here who don't seem to know enough about the Middle Eastern thought process as a reflection of their history. People there are controlled by their tyrannical religion and rulers and are afraid to think for themselves, even when given the chance. Unfortunately it's a fact of Middle Eastern life.
You talk down to others rather than having a civil conversation. If you live in a glass house...don't accuse people of ignorance!
To establish a freely elected liberal government in Iraq.
In Iraq, there will be no "Western-type" democracy. The democracy we envision, including Separation of Mosque and State WILL NEVER Happen for a very simple reason: it has to start from the crib which is impossible without a Turkey-type arrangement where there is a benevolent general who's lurking in the shadows and watching the politicians, compelling them to follow the Turkish Constitution OR ELSE!
You can flame me for an emotional opinion but at least it will tell you about an incident in the violent Iraqi history and how people don't know anything but life under tyranny. Surely you know about it, right?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1725530/posts?page=74#74
As I've said before this is the cold war and it's 1952.
Heeeaaavyyyy, LOL! Cold war, 1952? Even the cold war era had its hot wars with Soviet and Chinese proxies: Korea, smack in your 1952, and Viet Nam come to mind.
It's a red-hot war in Iraq with all the shooting and bombing everyday. It may be a lukewarm war (intermittent) with the Muslim communities in France, in the UK, in Spain and just sparking in the rest of Western Europe and Scandinavia.
For us to attain victory, this is what I believe should be done in the ME and to let other adversaries know that, as the only Superpower, we mean what we say :
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1758095/posts?page=53#53
So, I understand the Whys, the Hows and the Time Frames you're throwing around. What you don't understand is how to go about dealing with it!
Valin,
I'm willing to keep the dialogue civil, otherwise, don't bother to answer.
Have a good day.
No I don't. But I would have a tendency to believe a Marine Corps colonel with 23 years of service to this country, when he says "These people who commit terrorism have just adopted the face of Islam - nothing they say or do have anything to do with Islam," he says. "The Taliban is a terrorist organization - they are bad people doing bad things and they've attached religion to it. They are ruthless when it comes to killing people, but that's how you move helpless people around - you use fear."
Mr. Salih evidently does not realize that the western media were (and still are) on Saddam's side.
Nor that the job of "presenting the American case to the world" was left to traitors like Eason Jordan.
Anti-Americanism runs deep the western media. Indeed, it is the animating idea for most journalists. And we Americans shall eventually pay an awful price for it.
The reason (IMO) Maliki was released (and yes I think that was a mistake and one that will come back to bite the Iraq govenment in the butt) had more to do in internal Iraqi politics than PC, it is after all now their country.
Valin, don’t use big words, I'm not intimidated
I don't use big words to intimidate, I use them because they express what I mean to say and I assume you know that. If you don't I can dumb it down.
Nope, it's YOU like some here who don't seem to know enough about the Middle Eastern thought process as a reflection of their history. People there are controlled by their tyrannical religion and rulers and are afraid to think for themselves, even when given the chance. Unfortunately it's a fact of Middle Eastern life.
1 I obsess (for lack of a better word) on this, So in saying I don't undserstand the history, culture..ect of the middle east you are mistaken. I'll put this in simple words just so you won't think I'm trying to intimidate you, I what what the hell I'm talking about, you may disagree with my take on this but I DO know a thing or two about this. You name a book (I've probably read it or read a number of reviews on it, enough so that I get what the writer is talking about. Name A web site(Right, Left, military, civilian, blog...., I've probably got it bookmarked and go there regularly.
/hooting my own horn
In Iraq, there will be no "Western-type" democracy. The democracy we envision, including Separation of Mosque and State WILL NEVER Happrn
You do of course know that in Shia Islam Separation of Mosque and State is the mainstream position. And for very good reason as the Shia are very much in the minority.
No black turbans, no white turbans
Ayatollah Ali al-Sistan (paraphrase)
Heeeaaavyyyy, LOL! Cold war, 1952?
I was referring to the time frame we need to look at in this war. This is not a movie where the hero rides off into the sunset in 1 1/2 hours, this is real time, there is no tivo, or fast forward button in this war. It's going to be a long tough slog to quote Don Rumsfeld.
So, I understand the Whys, the Hows and the Time Frames you're throwing around. What you don't understand is how to go about dealing with it!
If I don't then neither does the likes of Don Rumsfeld, Fouad Ajami, John A. Nagl, Larry Schweikart (Freeper LS), Robert D. Kaplan, Max Boot, Tony Blair, Daniel Pipes.....
I understand that people want this damn war over with, and they don't see any great victories, and in a sense there aren't really any great battles and victories, or very few at any rate. That's the nature of counter-insurgency warfare, and our enemies are counting on Americans losing patience.
You seem to be a really nice person, but you are seemingly bent on finding some redeeming feature to Islam. The Taliban has not attached anything to Islam. Islam IS the Qur'an. The only thing good in the Qur'an is what Muhammad stole from the religion of the Jews and the Christians. But he perverted their religions and used religion against them and to gain personal power. He murdered people and stole their lands and taxed Jews and Christians who would not convert to Islam. If one is a Muslim, one's holy book is the Qur'an, a collection of thoughts by a perverted criminal, and a book that has been the source of death and destruction for 1400 years!
If you notice, I make a distinction between Islam and Muslims. One is an ideology and the other human beings. Can there be nice people who are Muslim? Yes! But just like there are Christians and Jews who consider themselves thus who do not really know (or maybe care) about the history and finer points of their religions, there are Muslims who are the same way. The difference is that Judaism and Christianity are peaceful religions. Yes, there were those who warred in the name of Christ (some rightly and some wrongly - and don't forget that the Crusades were a reply to Muhammad's original jihad), but because Christians do not claim that the New Testament is the word of God, but the words of men about God, it has been possible to maintain progress and civility. Not so with the Qur'an. Like I said before, there will be no reform in Islam unless some Islamic scholars get together and make the heretical claim that the words of the Qur'an were, in fact, the words of Muhammad - a man - and not the words of God. Islam blasphemes Christianity. Can you compare Muhammad to Jesus Christ? Did Jesus murder people? Did he take anything for himself? Did he enslave people? Did he violate a child? Did he marry for money and status?
Please watch the following video by Robert Spencer. It is brief. Click on the video at the top of the page.
http://hotair.com/
Then please read the following, which has been posted at least twice here at FR.
Religion of Peace?
http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=25854
By Jamie Glazov FrontPageMagazine.com | December 6, 2006
If I sound frustrated, I apologize. But I feel that Islam has to go. Secularizing Muslims is necessary, but it is only a vague, second best to getting rid of it. It has been a plague on mankind for 14 centuries.
You seem to be a really nice person
HEY! Watch it, I have a reputation to protect...grrrrr.
The problem I have with the Robert Spencers of the world is they take a simplistic view of Islam. They take the most bloodthristy xenophobic verses and say this is what all Muslims believe, this is the heart and soul of Islam. (note They are there, and the salafists make them the heart and soul of the ideology) But are these verses and the acts they inspire really have anything to do with the way the average Muslim line their life? That's not to say islam has problems, major serious problems..womens rights, religoius freedom just to name two of many. One of two things is going to happen over the next 100 years (because that's the time frame we're looking at) 1 Islam will adjust to the modern world, 2 it will end up on the ash heap of history.
What people need to understand is FreeRepublic is open to the world, and here comes some guy sitting in an internet cafe in say Cairo, he comes here and reads some of what's said about Islam and Muslims (and let's be truthful some of it is really disgusting and bigoted) and thinks "Well maybe Ali is right the do want to kill and destroy us, maybe America really is in a war against Islam"
KUDO! Saad turns to the darkside, where before he was on the fence.
And that's why I post on these threads what I post. Of couse it hepls that from everything I've seen since 9-11 leads me to believe it's true.
What we need is more Bernard Lewis, Daniel Pipes..and less (much much less) Robert Spencer.
So why does he react that way, but when I see anti-semitic statements here I don't assume all FReepers are out to kill me or that America is at war with Judaism? Come to think of it, why didn't Israel simply nuke all it's neighbors many years ago? Do you doubt that Iran or Syria or even Saudi Arabia or others would not have done it to Israel if they could have?
The reason is Islam is not like other religions. As we have been discussing in this thread, there's too much emphasis on shame, pride, face, and faith, in the sense of never questioning even the most obvious faults and inconsistencies in the religion. There is a debasement of the value of life and worship of death. There is a utter lack of respect for the basic freedoms, including the one of existence, of non-Muslims.
Maliki wasn't arrested! He is the Prime Minister who ORDERED the release of a Shi'aa murderer that is Sadr's deputy. I did not say that that is PC, don't mix up facts. That is related to the issue of tying our troops' hands. Simple enough, isn't it?
I don't use big words to intimidate, I use them because they express what I mean to say and I assume you know that. If you don't I can dumb it down.......I'll put this in simple words just so you won't think I'm trying to intimidate you..........This is not a movie where the hero rides off into the sunset in 1 1/2 hours, this is real time, there is no tivo, or fast forward button in this war.
The big words of Whys, Hows and Time Frames are simple enough but dumb plenty. Your condescension gives away the level of your knowledge. As the saying goes: little knowledge is dangerous. The proof follows in your own words:
You do of course know that in Shia Islam Separation of Mosque and State is the mainstream position. And for very good reason as the Shia are very much in the minority.
LOL! Where did you get this from? One of your numerous books and websites, no doubt! Who is ruling Iran? Iran's Shiite mullahs! Where is the vaunted separation between Mosque and State? Their Spritual Leaders word IS law and their President is still talking to his twelveth imam who resides in a well outside Tehran!
Iraqi Shi'aa are very much in the minority? Over 60% is a minority? We were laughing at Reyes, the new House Intelligance commitee Chairman Elect, because he didn't know who are the Sunnis or the Shi'aa or the difference between their agendas!
As a FReeper you should get off your self-made pedestal and make use of the time on your hands to learn from the zillion sites and books that you're so proud of. However, I wonder if that will be enough or maybe just a drop in the bucket to add to your VAST knowledge! Here is why:
Using your own words: This is not a movie where the hero rides off into the sunset in 1 1/2 hours, this is real time, there is no tivo, or fast forward button in this war.
PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH!
Good luck in your endeavors. Bye!
I agree with you that some of what gets posted here can be really vile. And that the most vile comments are made about Muslims in general. I haven't spent the last five years studying Islam to be able to justify hating people. But I can justify my disgust with an outdated, hatefilled ideology that lends itself too easily to violence and probably always will.
Some Muslims spend their lives in a manner similar to the way you and I do. Unfortunately, especially since the '79 Revolution, there has been a call to those Muslims who were already becoming secularized to refamiliarize themselves with Qur'anic teachings. And as long as that book exists in its present form, there will be a danger to humankind. As long as children the world over (in our own country as well) are taught to memorize that book and taught lies about Muhammad being a good man, the problems with Islam will continue.
I understand what you are saying about some Muslim in some country reading a comment at FR or elsewhere, but I read really horrible comments about my country in foreign blogs and I don't put on a suicide belt.
Islam IS like a cult. It takes up a studious individual's entire day, not just with call to prayer, but with everything from the way to pee to when to bathe. It takes over one's mind with dictating daily details. It breathes hatred of Jews into innocent young minds. And on and on. If you read at forums where there are converts, you will see that is how they spend their time. "Can I do this? Or how do I do that?"
If Muslims want to keep their "religion," they need drastic reform now. The Qur'an and Islamic law are NOT compatible with the way WE live our lives, yet WE are being forced to accommodate that which we do not believe in or legally ascribe to. Spencer is right about one thing - Keith Ellison should be made to comment on his assoc. with ISNA and MAS.
I debated a woman here. A very nice lady who has a security website. I can't recall her name right this second. (mmcarroll, I think) She had an attitude similar to yours. She said she thought debating Islam and discussing all the negatives didn't have a useful purpose. That it was much better to be nice and to appease and try to get "moderate" Muslims to help change things. I told her I think we need both what she was doing and what I was doing, because unless the negatives are brought up, Muslims are not going to work to change anything. And frankly, Valin, very few are. Most all who speak out say the same things over and over. The members of the Islamic organizations repeat the same spin. They never say anything different. They sound like robots. Or smile and lie. If normal, everyday-type Muslims really want to change things, then they have to do a better job of speaking out. And unfortunately, they cannot keep using the excuse that family members who remain in their homeland will be in danger, or other such excuses.
So, I guess you and I will have to keep doing what we're doing in our own way and just hope that something will change.
Peace to you. :)
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