How Our Civilization Can Fall

Aside from 500 Tzotzil Indians down in the Chiapas (who don't even speak Spanish and are not integrated into Mexican culture anyway) there is functionally NO growth of Islam in Mexico.

I hear this claim bandied about by the "build the fence and expel em all" cult, but there is no evidence to support the idea that Islam is a growing threat to us in Latin America. Even the "Mohammed Triangle" area of Paraguay, Uruguay and Argentina/Brazil (which bears watching) is all made up of immigrants, not converts. Intelligence and military units of these countries have begun tracking these people, tightening immigration requirements, and restricting visas to Arabs/Muslims.

This could change, of course, and we could see a huge influx of Latinos into Islam. However, the truth of the matter is that evangelical/pentecostal Christianity is the true surge in cultural change in Latin America. Over 70% of the population of El Salvador is now protestant, and 60% of Guatemala.

I fear the "students" on expired visas here far more than the paranoid wet dreams of those who want to check under the sombrero of every border hopper to see if he has an Al-Quaeda membership card tucked up there.

You make a number of excellent points. The Mexican "immigration" differs from previous immigrations in two ways. First is sheer size.

"Sheer" size is misleading, like the alarmists who bray about the "sheer size" of the budget deficit, and ignore that it was, percentagewise, less than the budget deficit of the early 1980s. (that was a deficit run in a recession and this is a deficit in an expanding economy...., which is far more troublesome, but that is a different kettle of fish) The size of the immigrant population (legal and illegal) is estimated to be approximately 12-13% of our population. While larger than the most recent years, this is less than the percentages of immigrant population in the early 1900's (14.9%) and in the late 1800's (14.2%), and, of course, in the nascent years of our country's founding.

Second is that rather than wanting to become Americans, many want to continue living as Mexicans while enjoying the benefits the U.S. provides.

Actually, many wish to come here and fill the jobs that we are not producing children to fill from our own birthrate (baby boomers peaked in 68, and our population growth has gone downhill dramatically, plus we have aborted almost 35 million citizens since ROE). If our economy is to grow, we need entry level labor, and we aren't producing children to fill it. Those are cold hard economic/social facts.

You are correct in that many immigrants do NOT want to stay here. They are Mexican (or Guatemalan, or whatever) and want to come here, earn enough money to take back and pay cash for a home, and live life in Latin America. This COULD be better for all of us, if we had a sane border policy. Rising standards of living in Latin America make it more attractive to STAY, rather than see the USA as their only hope. Most laborers I know would gladly return if they could survive, and are saving money for that day. They ESPECIALLY want to raise their teenage kids outside the USA, as the values of family, respect for adults, and hard work are almost impossible to reinforce in our toxic youth culture.

On the other hand, all the immigrants I know (legal and otherwise) who want to stay and raise their kids, put a GREAT deal of emphasis on their children learning English. I can cite studies for you (too lazy to google them right now) where it is empirically demonstrated that the rate of assimilation by the present Latino influx is on track with the rates of previous generations (language of first and second generations, second generation interracial/intercultural marriage, jobs, etc). The only significant differential factor is the low rate of Latinos who go on to university beyond HS. Most are employed in trades and tend to go to work right out of HS. Otherwise, they are not fulfilling the fears of those who fear permanent minority enclaves.

/mark

Excellent read! Thanks for posting it.

This is what I said in a previous post on a different topic. I'm just waiting for Santorum to announce a bid for the Presidency.

I have not read the entire article;
But does Orson Scott Card present the idea that the multi cultural diversity cult has sapped the will of the majority to defend and or even decide on any group as an enemy?

Diversity is just another name for scism. We will never unite again over any invasion foreign or domestic. The masses are too stupid, and selfish to through out the snobish elites in government or higher ed. Anyone offering them a handout will be elected. The quazie republicans ruined the chances of conservatism because they lacked any backbone.

The united states died this year; 11/07/2006. We will soon be the socialist republic of north america.

"This is what I said in a previous post on a different topic. I'm just waiting for Santorum to announce a bid for the Presidency."

How I wish he would!!!!

Another MUST READ from Orson Scott Card
combined ping to two ping lists

Nailed It!

This ping list is not author-specific for articles I'd like to share. Some for the perfect moral clarity, some for provocative thoughts; or simply interesting articles I'd hate to miss myself. (I don't have to agree with the author all 100% to feel the need to share an article.) I will try not to abuse the ping list and not to annoy you too much, but on some days there is more of the good stuff that is worthy of attention. You can see the list of articles I pinged to lately on my page.
You are welcome in or out, just freepmail me (and note which PING list you are talking about). Besides this one, I keep 2 separate PING lists for my favorite authors Victor Davis Hanson and Orson Scott Card.

Orson Scott Card - PING [please freepmail me if you want or don't want to be pinged to Orson Scott Card political articles]

(As I keep saying) The world is a small interconneted place, and is getting more so every day.
Something the paleocons don't seem to get. It's not 1806, it's 2006, and even 1806 wasn't what they think it was.

There is a local talkshow host here who says "Diversity is a fact...not a value."

He could always wear a sandwich board.

"The End is Nigh!!"

Many thanks for the ping. I'll have to temper Card's certitudes a bit by pointing out that he is leaning heavily on some not altogether reliable secondary sources, at least with respect to the fall of Rome.

The "Dark Ages" that he described were not particularly long, certainly not the centuries that are generally connoted by the name. Yes, the international economy in Western Europe was crippled by the loss of centrality in the form of Roman government, and there was a verifiable downturn in that daily life that depended upon it.

But another thing happened surrounding the Roman estates - these were by design fairly self-sufficient and formed the manors - the population and economic centers - around which feudalism grew. They did trade among themselves, their fief-holders did cooperate in defense, and it was quite a few centuries later that a King came along to centralize power that was already fairly centralized.

Were we to use that as an analogy to a post-oil-bust world we'd have the prospect of robust regional economies that are less hindered by transport than their international predecessor. It is a mistake to conclude that because the current market makes it advantageous to purchase rather than produce steel, for example, that it would take decades to reverse the process should that become economically advantageous. On the contrary, what modern technology affords us is the ability to accelerate that process at need. The stunning rapidity with which the U.S. steel producers entered the "boutique" steel market is a case in point.

This isn't the dawning of the Industrial age and certain things have changed so radically that extrapolation becomes a very hazardous business. Information, for one. Economy is the flow of information. (For those wishing a clear basic treatment of this I'd recommend Sowell's Knowledge and Decisions; for those who want the motherlode I'd recommend von Mises' Human Action and best of luck with the latter.) The flow of information we have even now, much less in the years it will take for Card's gloomy prognostications to work themselves out, is simply astonishing. Where an individual on a computer in rural Oregon can take advantage of a local surplus of widgets in South Carolina through an Ebay account we have a nearly pure example of this process. Yes, the cost of transporation will affect the economic leverage involved but it won't change the process itself. That is far more robust than oil.

I bring this up to illustrate the importance of understanding what really happened in the Dark Ages - a temporary period of chaos followed by the coalescing of economics around newer and less centralized models. What came out of that was stronger than Rome. There is hope.

All IMHO and subject to razzing from my fellow FReepers as usual... ;-)

....or an even more likely and probable scenario.....being over run by third world illegals.

Like Buddy Hackett used to say...
wun fum collum A, toooo fum collum Beeeeee

take your pick

Sounds like something Thomas Malthus would write on his pessimistic predictions regarding the future of humanity - which did not come out to be true.

Such things are not predictions, they are warnings.

"The size of the immigrant population (legal and illegal) is estimated to be approximately 12-13% of our population."

Funniest thing I've read all week here. Thanks for the laugh FRiend.

The "Dark Ages" that he described were not particularly long, certainly not the centuries that are generally connoted by the name.

When I 1st started looking at this I was suprised to find that the "Dark Ages' were were not as dark as I had been lead to believe.

FYI

Something I got myself last year for Christmas
Early Middle Ages (Valins says: Thing Dark Ages 101)
(24 lectures, 30 minutes/lecture)
Course No. 8267
Taught by Philip Daileader
The College of William and Mary
Ph.D., Harvard University

http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursedesclong2.aspx?cid=8267&id=8267&d=Early+Middle+Ages&pc=SaleHistory%20-%20Ancient%20and%20Medieval

We often call them the "Dark Ages," the era which spanned the decline and fall of Rome’s western empire and lingered for centuries, a time when the Ancient World was ending and Europe had seemingly vanished into ignorance and shadow, its literacy and urban life declining, its isolation from the rest of the world increasing.

It was a time of decline, with the empire fighting to defend itself against an endless onslaught of attacks from all directions: the Vikings from the North, the Huns and other Barbarians from the East, the Muslim empire from the south.

It was a time of death and disease, with outbreaks of plague ripping through populations both urban and rural.

It was a time of fear, when religious persecution ebbed and flowed with the whims of those in power.

And as Rome's power and population diminished, so, too, did its ability to handle the administrative burdens of an overextended empire. Fewer records were kept, leaving an often-empty legacy to historians attempting to understand the age.

But modern archaeology has begun to unearth an increasing number of clues to this once-lost era. And as historians have joined them to sift through those clues—including evidence of a vast arc of Viking trade reaching from Scandinavia to Asia—new light has begun to fall across those once "dark" ages and their fascinating personalities and events.

"A World Recognizably Becoming Our Own"

In his new course on The Early Middle Ages—which traces a journey from Scandinavia across northern and central Europe to the farthest reaches of the Byzantine and Islamic empires—Professor Philip Daileader shares this new understanding of a world, no matter how far away and strange it may seem, that is "recognizably becoming our own."

"In countless ways, seemingly obscure events and developments from the ‘Dark Ages’ impinge on the lives of people today.

"This is true in the realm of religion, because our period saw the triumph of Christianity over paganism. … This is true in the realm of language, because every word that we speak and write—indeed, the handwriting that we use each and every day—is a product of the historical forces that we will study. … And this is true in the realm of family life, because many practices that existed in 300—such as polygyny, marriage within the kin group, and infanticide—are illegal today and were vanishing or completely gone by the year 1000."

Why Study "The Dark Ages"?

As Professor Daileader points out, given the period’s dismal reputation and its temporal remoteness from the 21st century, one might wonder why the histories of the later Roman Empire and the Early Middle Ages should command our attention.

First, he suggests, the years from 300 to 1000 present us with some of the most challenging questions historians have ever had to tackle:

Why did the Roman Empire fall?
Why did the ancient world give way to the medieval world?
Why did Christian monotheism become the dominant religion in Europe?
Secondly, this period commands our attention because of some of the people who lived during it.

"Theologians and philosophers such as St. Augustine were going to exert a commanding influence on European thought for well over a millennium after their death," he notes. "To understand later medieval thinkers, to understand Reformation thinkers, such as Martin Luther, one needs to know something about figures such as St. Augustine."

To be sure, the Early Middle Ages were not without figures who still pique our interest today, such as King Arthur and Charlemagne.

As Professor Daileader considers the extent to which the historical realities of Arthur and Charlemagne match up to the legends that have become attached to their names, he repeatedly fascinates with revealing personal insights, such as Charlemagne’s love for simply bobbing around in hot baths, or the window offered into his personality by a contemporary biography penned by a friend and confidante named Einhard.

Einhard’s writing is detailed, but the lectures point out that some of those details—including those about the ruler’s difficulty in writing his name and chanting Latin liturgy—suggest that his largely complimentary account of Charlemagne’s intellectual achievements is exaggerated.

Finally, Professor Daileader emphasizes the importance of understanding the Early Middle Ages as a vital underpinning for what was to come. Even if its accomplishments pale somewhat in comparison to those of the Late Middle Ages or the Italian Renaissance, those later developments are nonetheless built upon foundations established during the Early Middle Ages.

"Without some important transformations that occurred during this period, the rest would not have been possible. To understand fully the High Middle Ages or the Italian Renaissance, it is necessary to understand the Early Middle Ages," he states.

Great Historians View the Dark Ages

A four-time winner of Harvard University’s Certificate of Distinction in Teaching, Professor Daileader creates a framework for that understanding by using the contrasting historical theories offered by two extremely influential historians:
Edward Gibbon, the English author of the monumental Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, whose explanations closely followed those of the Roman moralists of the 4th and 5th centuries, and
Henri Pirenne, the Belgian thinker who injected a newfound emphasis on social and especially economic factors into the analysis of history.
Beginning with their two contrasting viewpoints, Professor Daileader offers a fast-moving portrait of a period of history that consistently belies its reputation as dark or dismal.

You learn, for example, the role of Gibbon’s massive ego in his choice of the subject matter that would make him famous, as well as the intensity of his animosity toward Christianity and willingness to express in his writings startling accusations against it.

You study, in depth, the possible reasons for the decline of Rome’s vast eastern and western empires, and whether and how Rome actually "fell."

Christianity, as you might expect, plays a tremendously important role in the period covered by this course, but always in unexpected ways.

Professor Daileader explains, for example, how the increasing difficulty of achieving martyrdom—a chore even in a pre-Christian Roman empire and a near impossibility under Constantine—created a need for new paths toward "Christian heroicism."

Those paths might be as expected as monasticism or as outlandish as the pole-sitting Stylites, whose demonstrations of devotion might last for decades and offer Professor Daileader an opportunity to demonstrate his delightful sense of classroom wit.

Hear the Arrest of Jesus … Rewritten as a Norse Saga

You’ll also encounter a style of Christian writing you may well never have seen before, as Professor Daileader explores the strategies the Carolingians used to convert Saxons to Christianity and reads a passage describing the arrest of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane as rendered in one of the most unusual of these writings—The Heliand, a Carolingian translation of the Gospels dramatically rewritten as a Norse saga.

And you’ll learn the strange fear that drove Charlemagne to restore Latin literacy during the "Carolingian Renaissance"—including some samples from the standardized tests given prospective priests that offer a hint as to the immense task the Carolingians were up against.

The tests put forth, for example, by Louis the Pious, the son of Charlemagne, included questions on such basic elements of Christian theology as, "Do you believe in the resurrection of the dead?"

"Even more amazing," notes Professor Daileader, "answer sheets were provided for the examiners … because it was by no means certain that the person grading the test was going to know whether this was a ‘true’ or a ‘false.’ "

You encounter extraordinary successes as well, learning how the often incomprehensible copied texts left behind by the Romans and Barbarians led the Carolingians to develop basics that we now take for granted, including spaces between words, punctuation, and even the form of handwriting we still use today.

You discover the curious reason why Irish and Anglo-Saxon monks worked harder than their counterparts on the continent, and how this contributed to their monasteries becoming the intellectual centers of their day during the 6th-century re-Christianization of Anglo-Saxon England.

The Profound Impact of the Viking and Islamic Cultures

The Early Middle Ages were marked by startling contributions from many cultures.

Though the Vikings, for example, are often presented to us only as warlike invaders, Professor Daileader reveals how they were, in fact, far more complex than that one-dimensional picture indicates.

Yes, their fierce raids for wealth and slaves did result in the sacking of almost every important town in the Carolingian empire multiple times in the 9th century. In fact, citizens even grew to expect the annual Viking raids.

But they also established a remarkable trading network—the Northern Arc—the routes of which took them not only across Europe, but to northern Africa, the Middle East and the Far East. Archaeologists, in fact, have even unearthed a Viking-age statue of Buddha in a Scandinavian bog.

The Vikings’ reputation in matters of invasion does not go unexamined, however, and these lectures also explain why the raiders from the north enjoyed such success.

Professor Daileader explains the technological advantage provided by their longboats—the European network of rivers that allowed them to exploit this advantage to the fullest, their ability to carry those longboats across land when they needed to reach new rivers, and the desperate payment of Carolingian protection money—danegeld—that really offered little protection at all; after taking their payout, the Vikings would often simply move on to raid neighboring territories.

Professor Daileader also offers a fascinating glimpse into Islamic culture during this crucial period. You’ll see the birth of Islam in the land where, before Muhammad, most of the people were actually pagan polytheists whose worship included several gods in addition to Allah, and the countless ways in which the Arabs transformed Spain—or al-Andalus—during the golden age of Islamic rule.

During this golden age, Islamic rulers brought great technological advances in agriculture to al-Andalus, making the nation a center of complex religious and ethnic diversity and a great seat of scholarship whose ruler was himself rumored to possess a library of more than 400,000 volumes.

You’ll also enjoy a remarkable glimpse into the court of al-Andalus’s 10th-century ruler, Emir Abd al-Rahman III, who used dazzling tricks including "light shows"—using a bowl of mercury and the architecture of his reception hall—to impress his visitors.

If the demonstration wasn’t forceful enough, of course, his visitors could also dwell upon the reputation this ruler had gained for forcefully defending his power, for Abd al-Rahman III had once disinterred and crucified the 11-years-dead corpse of an enemy’s father to prove a point that even death held no shelter from his wrath!

One of the most interesting subjects covered by Professor Daileader during his lectures on Islam’s role in this period is the origin of the idea of jihad, which had a very different meaning in the time of Muhammad than many of us associate it with today.

Professor Daileader concludes this enlightening look at the Dark Ages with a discussion on how Gibbon and Pirenne have fared through the lens of historical hindsight, and how today’s historians will one day face the same judgment.

____________________________________________

I'd recomend it to anyone who is interested in this time period, and doesn't want to spend a whole lot of time reading some pretty dry books.

Columbus, Ohio, native, Sunni Muslim fights in Global War on Terrorism (as a MARINE!)
Marine Corps News ^ | July 27, 2005 | Cpl. Ken Melton

http://freerepublic.com/focus/news/1451921/posts
Posted on 07/27/2005 6:47:32 PM CDT by SandRat

HADITHA DAM, Iraq (July 27, 2005) -- As the Marines with 3rd Battalion, 25th Marine Regiment continue their fight in the Global War on Terrorism, most of them think of it as business and not personal.

However, for some Marines who are of the Islamic faith, the war in Iraq hits a personal note. Cpl. Mohammed N. Rahman, who is a Sunni Muslim, fights not only to free the people of Iraq from the insurgents grip and to protect his country (America), but also to redeem his beloved religion.

“This is a personal offense, not only to me but others who share my faith,” said the 23-year-old infantryman with 2nd Platoon, Company L. “The insurgents have scarred the image of my religion.”

Rahman was born in Dhaka, Bangladesh where he learned to speak Bangla, Hindi, Urdu, and Arabic during his childhood, before moving the United States with his family at age 12.

Upon arriving in America, he strove to learn the English language while adjusting to the busy and culturally different society.

He joined the Marine Corps in 2001 because of its discipline and its tradition that closely mirrored the practices of his beliefs.

Rahman was shocked to learn later in the year that the terrorists of the Sept. 11 attack announced that they were Sunni Muslims and that their faith had led them to attack.

“I was outraged by this ludicrous image that the insurgents portrayed about my faith,” the Columbus, Ohio native said. “No one really feels the same way they feel.”

Now Rahman is working to redeem his faith and putting his linguistic skills to good use while supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom.

On missions, Rahman, in addition to being a rifleman, acts a linguist for his squad. As a linguist he informs the local community he comes in contact with about the Marines mission here and helps them understand that the service members are here to help them.
(snip)
_____________________________________

Serving Was Soldier's Mission - Sudan Native Killed in Iraq Did 'Good Deeds'
Washington Post ^ | January 4, 2006 | Martin Weil

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1553478/posts
Posted on 01/06/2006 10:27:37 PM CST by redgirlinabluestate

Ayman Taha, a Berkeley graduate who was described as athletic, a speaker of many languages, and a friend to all who met him, had only to write his dissertation to earn his PhD, his father said.

But three years ago, Taha, a budding economist and the son of a Northern Virginia couple, Abdel-Rahman and Amal Taha, joined the Army to serve in the Special Forces. About a year ago, he was sent to Iraq.

On Friday, as Staff Sgt. Ayman Taha, 31, was preparing a cache of munitions for demolition in the town of Balad, the explosives detonated and he was killed, the Pentagon said yesterday.

It is "a very terrible thing," Abdel-Rahman Taha said. "He was a son, and a very special son."

The father added: "If you believe in God and you realize that this is God's will . . . it makes it a lot easier."

There is also consolation, the father said, in feeling that "this is something Ayman wanted to do."

A family friend, Nada Eissa, agreed. "No, he didn't have to do it," she said. "This is something he wanted to do."
(snip)
____________________________________________

The ASMA Society, a not-for-profit 501(c) 3 founded in 1997 in New York City, is an Islamic cultural and educational organization dedicated to fostering an American-Muslim identity and building bridges between American Muslims and the American public.

ASMA's philosophical objective is to strengthen a culturally American expression of Islam based on tolerance and on cultural and religious harmony and to foster an environment in which Muslims can thrive within a pluralistic society without compromising their essential values and beliefs.

AN INCLUSIVE APPROACH

ASMA's participants and members are drawn from two large and specific groups of individuals:

Muslims seeking to improve their own understanding of Islam and to practice their faith in the company of individuals committed to understanding the true principles of Islam, free of cultural biases;
Non-Muslims seeking to understand Islam and to overcome negative perceptions of Islam.
OBJECTIVES

ASMA intends to meet six key objectives over the next five years:

IDENTITY: To forge an American Muslim identity that combines the best aspects of being both American and Muslim.
EMPOWERMENT OF YOUTH LEADERS: To empower young American Muslims to become spokespeople for a tolerant, harmonious, authentic Islam by encouraging them to identify with the essentials of the Islamic faith that cut across cultural boundaries.
BUILDING BRIDGES: To aid non-Muslims overcome biases and negative perceptions by dismantling the common stereotypes and myths surrounding Muslims and Islam. Conversely, to work toward dismantling myths regarding Americans held in parts of the Muslim world.
CULTURAL EXPRESSION: To explore and celebrate the role that various expressions of Islamic art have played in contributing to world civilizations and to promote contemporary Muslim artists and their inclusion into the artistic fabric of America.
INTERFAITH: Encouraging spiritual evolution in Muslim and non-Muslim Americans by engaging with other contemplative traditions that penetrate beyond different languages, practices and faiths to the common substrate of the religious experience.
INTRAFAITH: To amplify Islamic arguments demonstrating that Islamic texts, theology and law support the principles of separation of powers, justice, women's rights, and freedom of religious practice.
(snip)
________________________________________

All CAIR has going for them is Saudi money.

["Such things are not predictions, they are warnings."]

You just gave me an idea. Maybe we should call the change in climate conditions to: Global Warning :-)

He does a better job outlining what's at stake in the war on terror than the entire Bush Administration.

"Global Warning" would actually be a more accurate name for the theory than 'Global Warming' - well said!