Historian Doubts Record of Black Pilots

Newsday & AP ^ | 12/11/06 | n/a

[kiriath_jearim]

MONTGOMERY, Ala. -- It has been part of the lore of America's first black fighter pilots since the end of World War II: The Tuskegee Airmen never lost a bomber to enemy fire.

But now, more than 60 years later, a leader of the group says he has uncovered records proving the claim is not accurate.

Air Force records show that at least a few bombers escorted by the red-tailed fighters of the Tuskegee Airman were shot down by enemy planes, William F. Holton, historian of Tuskegee Airmen Inc., said in an interview Monday with The Associated Press. And the group's losses may have been much greater, he said.

Holton's research was first reported Sunday by the Montgomery Advertiser.

Some surviving members of the group were offended by the findings of Holton and Daniel Haulman of the Air Force Historical Research Agency at Maxwell-Gunter Air Force Base in Montgomery, who came to the same conclusion.

Former Tuskegee Airman Carrol Woods of Montgomery called their claims "outrageous."

"I think they are trying to destroy our record. What's the point now?" Woods, 87, told the Advertiser.

Holton said his sole interest is in making sure the group's history is as accurate as possible.

The president of the Tuskegee Airmen Inc., retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Russell Davis, said he will no longer claim in speeches that the group never lost a bomber under its escort.

"I'm going to drop (it) until we can get this thing clarified," Davis said. "We've got some homework to do, obviously."

The Tuskegee Airmen were the first group of black fighter pilots allowed into the U.S. Army Air Corps. They got their name from the Alabama town where they trained.

[sure_fine]

now this isn't very PC is it

[popdonnelly]

They're still heroes in my book.

[surely_you_jest]

How much history is really the lies of the liberal press?

Most of it.

Having said that, whether or not these guys lost a few doesn't alter the fact that they did a great job of providing cover to the "heavies" (bombers) of their era.

[leadpenny]

What's a raciss?

[AnAmericanMother]

My dad always was a little irritated at the Tuskegee Airmen, because they bombed and strafed his Engineer company's position in Italy.

. . . of course, friendly fire happens to everybody sooner or later, and the Tuskegee Airmen are no more immune to position errors than they are to AA fire.

But it's important to have the history straight, because otherwise it's all just a fairy tale. We can't have one standard of truth for "regular" history, and another standard for "protected groups". It redounds to their detriment in the long run.

[Samwise]

ping

[ichabod1]

"Even if they lost three or four bombers, it would still be miniscule compared to the losses incurred by white pilots who also escorted bombers," said Alan Gropman, an author who also teaches at the National Defense University in Washington.

See, here's the problem. What are they trying to say here? It sounds like they're saying blacks are superior. Why? Why do they make it a black versus white thing? I find it really hard to believe that these black dudes are better fighters and pilots than their white counterparts. There. I said it.

[ANGGAPO]

Hey Dude, this ain't. These guys were good at what they did.

[ichabod1]

Are they? Or is it just another big story... an affirmative action tale spun to make the poor mistreated black man look superior? Apparently we'll never know.

[rabidralph]

No matter what the truth, the Tuskegee Airmen served their country well and no one should be afraid of the truth. Reminds me of another set of negro pioneers I heard about as a child.

[ANGGAPO]

It's all in how they scored the kills. The old combat reports should clear that point up.

[Bender2]

Re: "See, here's the problem. What are they trying to say here? It sounds like they're saying blacks are superior. Why? Why do they make it a black versus white thing? I find it really hard to believe that these black dudes are better fighters and pilots than their white counterparts."

Sadly nowadays, it is a 'black thing' among the liberals to believe a black man is better than a white man just because of the color of their skin...

Funny, that was supposed to be the thing white men were doing wrong, wasn't it?

[SampleMan]

Air losses and "victories" have always been muddled. And a mistake the historians often make is to assume that because they have objective primary sources, that it is a fact.

During the Battle of Britain (and the rest of the war) it was not uncommon for validated victories to far out number validated losses.

There is also a matter of what qualifies as "escort". Bombers were rarely escorted from takeoff to landing, and often handed off from escort squadron to escort squadron. Thus, it is possible that the Red Tails could have escorted bombers that were shot down by enemy fighters, but not while directly under their escort. It could also be that the Red Tail records and the bomber records do not agree about when they were be escorted.

I've read a lot of military reports, and there is no conspiracy required to get two or more that disagree about basic facts.

[Braak]

I always had some doubts about that claim. But I thought it might have been possible. Why? Simple, as brave and capable as the Tuskegee airmen were, they never faced German units like JG 26 or 54. Those units and units like them had most of the experten facing the 8th AF over the Channel and the North Sea. What was facing the Tuskegee and the 15th in Italy? The Luftwaffe's version of the JV, not to mention airforces from axis satraps like Croatia and Slovakia or minor allies like Hungary or Romania. Also, the Tuskegee began their escort missions after June of 1944. By then, when the Luftwaffe came up, it was few and far between, and those experten were drying up. In short, the Germans weren't as good as they were in late '42 and early '43. Read the book JG 26 or Galland's The First and the Last if you want a good microcosm of a Luftwaffe fighter group from the start to the end of the war. I believe, if the Tuskegee had flown with the 8th AF, they'd have had the rude introduction every allied fighter squadron got over the English Channel and the North Sea. That's not to denigrate the Tuskegee or anyone else...anybody who willingly strapped on a fighter in World War II was a brave man..life expectancies were short, and the one good things the British and Americans did for their pilots was pilot rotation. That's really what undid the Germans IMO. They flew till they died, and the experten never passed on their experience to the newer pilots, who were killed in droves.

[Doctor Raoul]

"I'm going to drop (it) until we can get this thing clarified," Davis said. "We've got some homework to do, obviously."

Lt Gen DAvis is a class act for handling it this way.

I have a lot of resepct for these folks. They had to fight to get into the fight and I've never heard any of them bad mouth the United States. They believed that this country was fundamentally good and would correct its wrongs.

The museum at Dover AFB had (probably still does have) a red tailed P-51 on display and a room set aside for their display.

[popdonnelly]

Yeah, they're heroes. They overcame the institutional racism of the Army Air Corps to become fighter pilots. They risked their lives flying escort missions over Europe, facing some very good German pilots. So, yeah, I'd say they're heroes.

[uncbob]

They were men who fought valiantly for their country to rid it of great evil. Does it really matter if they lost bombers or not?

Somebody must have thought it did or it wouldn't have been part of their history to date

[SuziQ]

Whether they lost none, or lost some, it doesn't change the bravery of these men, so it doesn't change my opinion of them in the slightest!

[leadpenny]

If anyone doubts what you just posted, I invite them to the next VHPA (Vietnam Helicopter Pilot's Reunion). Accounts of events, big and small, vary greatly, and there is almost no way to reconcile differences.

[Broker]

Let their memories be untarnished..God Bless these studs!