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The Wisdom of General Crook
Strategy Page ^ | November 25, 2006

Posted on 11/25/2006 3:52:09 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4

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I have been comparing Pashtuns to Apaches and talking up General Crook for the last two years.

We have been in Afghanistan for 5 years now. We should have some fluent Pashto speakers capable of leading psuedo-gangs and long range reconnaisance patrols into Waziristan. The Afghan National Army should have by now at least a battalion of decent light infantry capable of serving as a mobile strike force.

A winter campaign in the Hindu Kush will be hard school for an American soldier, but with the proper leadership they can rise to that challenge, and maybe bring in the heads of some HVT's and turn the pessimism and defeatism of the American public around.

1 posted on 11/25/2006 3:52:11 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
This sounds like a workable plan.

But I wonder if one can reasonably factor in the fanatacism of these Taliban and AQ thugs.

But overall it seems sound. Pacify the ones you can. Kill the ones you can't.

L

2 posted on 11/25/2006 3:55:32 AM PST by Lurker (Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.)
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3 posted on 11/25/2006 4:06:09 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Either we bring them freedom, or they destroy us.)
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To: archy; Criminal Number 18F; Future Snake Eater; Squantos; Steel Wolf

Geronimo (left center) at Meeting with General Crook (second from right, seated) in 1886

4 posted on 11/25/2006 4:13:11 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Either we bring them freedom, or they destroy us.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4; All
Thanks for this post!

If you want to get a little of Gen. Crook...he's a figure in the historical novel, A Distant Trumpet by Paul Horgan. This is an excellent story of the s.w. Indian wars...honor and Army life, and so forth....

5 posted on 11/25/2006 4:15:57 AM PST by Molly Pitcher (We are Americans...the sons and daughters of liberty...*.from FReeper the Real fifi*))
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

What the old saying?All I want is results. We have been playing games too long and the credability of the U.S. is going up in flames and the Democrats don't help.


6 posted on 11/25/2006 4:16:32 AM PST by puppypusher
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To: Lurker
Fanaticism won't keep them from freezing or starving.

The Moros in Mindanao were fanatical. Still are. Pershing whipped them so bad they didn't rise again for 40 years. In the case of the Pashtuns, most are not suicidally fanatic Islamic jihadis, but most ARE really into revenge and hospitality and other tenets of the Pathan Code, which the Arab al Qaeda jihadis manipulate to their benefit.

7 posted on 11/25/2006 4:24:30 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Either we bring them freedom, or they destroy us.)
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To: Molly Pitcher
If you want to get a little of Gen. Crook...he's a figure in the historical novel, A Distant Trumpet by Paul Horgan.

For an excellent read of Crook in Arizona I would suggest On the Border with General Crook by John, G. Bourke who was his aide during this period. The neat thing is it was written by someone who was there and taking part in the decisions and actions.

8 posted on 11/25/2006 4:26:49 AM PST by engrpat
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

I wonder if the logic breaks down here:

The American Indian knew they were outnumbered by the white population. "White man is like the buffalo -- endless numbers".

The Islamist believes Muslims outnumber (or soon shall, "god" willing)the Infidels. They will fight on.

No strategy will defeat the Islamists. All we can do is hope to manage them. Even a "scorched earth", "glass parking lot" policy won't defeat them. They are with us until the end times.

In the line of work I do, I have said that "I'm in this fight until the last terrorist is reduced to a puff of pink mist". And I know I'll still be saying that when I'm 89, should the Lord tarry.


9 posted on 11/25/2006 4:29:02 AM PST by AngrySpud (Behold, I am The Anti-Crust ... Anti-Hillary)
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To: Molly Pitcher
Crook stressed the importance of having healthy pack mules and horses, and he asked detailed questions about the animals. He had a passionate interest in the mules because he knew the success of any campaign, to a large extent, depended on them. He made it a point to know about the mules on every expedition, about their health and their eccentricities. The best men available were assigned to them.

George Crook's pack mules easily carried twice the load the army manual stipulated because he allowed only the best equipment to be used, and each pack saddle was tailored to fit each mule. He often spent an hour a day with the men and the mules, demonstrating scientific packing and how to check on the physical health of the mules. Therefore, Crook's troopers always had the ammunition they needed and his mule trains never failed in an emergency.

Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics.

10 posted on 11/25/2006 4:32:04 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Either we bring them freedom, or they destroy us.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
I thought it was 'Bear-coat' Miles who was the real practitioner of winter warfare. Prior to him... it was usually successful... but never fully acknowledged as a winning strategy against the tribes.
11 posted on 11/25/2006 4:33:07 AM PST by johnny7 ("We took a hell of a beating." -'Vinegar Joe' Stilwell)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Yeah, but don't forget that during the Apache War Crook ultimately lost the confidence of the U.S. government, which replaced him in 1886 with his long-time rival, General Nelson Miles. Miles, who was a lot more ruthless, finally subdued the Apaches by exiling Geronimo and his warriors to Florida, along with the Apache scouts who had served both generals so well in the defeat of their own people (although they were officially enlisted members of the army).

The point is that even if your strategy and tactics are sound, they are meaningless if the government does not support them.

12 posted on 11/25/2006 4:33:41 AM PST by Virginia Ridgerunner ("Si vis pacem para bellum")
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To: AngrySpud
No strategy will defeat the Islamists. All we can do is hope to manage them.

They can be defeated. They have been defeated before. If they are not defeated this time, it will be because Western Christendom surrendered.

General Crook's historical example has some application against hostile Pashtuns in Afghanistan and Waziristan. Success there will not end the Global War On Terror, but it wouldn't suck.

13 posted on 11/25/2006 4:40:36 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Either we bring them freedom, or they destroy us.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4; engrpat
How interesting!

Now your excerpt about the pack mules reminds me of something else:

The differences between Scott's and Amundsen's preparations for their South Pole expeditions, and...the VERY different outcomes.

Scott did not use the best animals for that hostile climate, and suffered terribly.

Amundsen chose the right pack animals - the dogs, I think...the particular names escape me! - and made history.

so in a different way, that story bears out your thesis Cannoneer...

Thanks for the tile, engrpat. I'll find it.

14 posted on 11/25/2006 4:55:36 AM PST by Molly Pitcher (We are Americans...the sons and daughters of liberty...*.from FReeper the Real fifi*))
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
I know that this quibble is beyond the larger point of the article which is that in suppressing a guerrilla, a commander ought always to improvise, adapt, and above all, divide and conquer.

My quibble is , and horse lovers will agree, that the author's assertion that small grass fed ponies are "faster" then shod, grain fed horses is simply contrary to fact. Whether by, "fast" the author means actually quicker in the run or simply being possessed of more endurance, a shod, grain fed horse will surpass a grass fed pony, all things being equal. And this is true summer or winter, although in winter the pony would need more grass for heat when little is available and have very little extra energy stored up to spare for exertions, and in summer, although grass would be more plentiful, the campaigning presumably harder.

In fact in my reading of the Indian wars it was the ultimate superiority of the Army horses that gave the cavalry a great advantage and that superiority was expressly attributable to these factors. I note that the author does not explicitly make the case that Miles was tied to his supply tail while the Indians were not. But this is a different argument.

An unshod horse will break down in hard riding over rough country long before a shod horse and he will play out sooner than the grain fed horse. You simply can not get uninterrupted hard work out of the grass fed horse for days on end. There simply is not enough energy in the grass. The horse would have to spend the bulk of the day grazing to accumulate enough energy to make up for yesterday's exertions as well as tomorrow's. I would further assume that in campaigning, the Indians would be unable to bring with them a herd of replacement horses.


15 posted on 11/25/2006 5:11:37 AM PST by nathanbedford ("I like to legislate. I feel I've done a lot of good." Sen. Robert Byrd)
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To: johnny7

I always thought it was Sheridan's idea.


16 posted on 11/25/2006 5:15:14 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Either we bring them freedom, or they destroy us.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

We have to be willing to wield other weapons that truly destroyed the Indian culture:

1. Promise one thing and do another, which is difficult in our PC days.
2. Spread smallpox and other such diseases to the Taliban.
3. Kill their means of support - poppies, goat herds, etc.
4. Place Taliban on remote reservations without means of support so they are dependent upon us.

I believe we can take the same approach with the tribes in iraq.


17 posted on 11/25/2006 5:18:00 AM PST by gotribe (There's still time to begin a war in Iraq.)
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To: Molly Pitcher

The date 1886 is cited here. I think that means that Indian wars had already been going on for 300 years. Lets say that resettlement to reservations had been going on since Jefferson was president. Our problem with Iraq is unrealistic magic thinking and impatience. Or, is it just ambitious democrats?


18 posted on 11/25/2006 5:20:27 AM PST by ClaireSolt (Have you have gotten mixed up in a mish-masher?)
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To: gotribe

There weren't no Left wing TV taking the side of them indians in those olden days


19 posted on 11/25/2006 5:22:41 AM PST by uncbob
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To: Lurker
But I wonder if one can reasonably factor in the fanatacism of these Taliban and AQ thugs.

But I wonder if one can reasonably factor in the fanatacism of the "Let's Hate America" press?

20 posted on 11/25/2006 5:24:48 AM PST by libertylover (If it's good and decent, you can be sure the Democrat Party leaders are against it.)
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