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I have been comparing Pashtuns to Apaches and talking up General Crook for the last two years.

We have been in Afghanistan for 5 years now. We should have some fluent Pashto speakers capable of leading psuedo-gangs and long range reconnaisance patrols into Waziristan. The Afghan National Army should have by now at least a battalion of decent light infantry capable of serving as a mobile strike force.

A winter campaign in the Hindu Kush will be hard school for an American soldier, but with the proper leadership they can rise to that challenge, and maybe bring in the heads of some HVT's and turn the pessimism and defeatism of the American public around.

1 posted on 11/25/2006 3:52:11 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
This sounds like a workable plan.

But I wonder if one can reasonably factor in the fanatacism of these Taliban and AQ thugs.

But overall it seems sound. Pacify the ones you can. Kill the ones you can't.

L

2 posted on 11/25/2006 3:55:32 AM PST by Lurker (Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.)
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3 posted on 11/25/2006 4:06:09 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Either we bring them freedom, or they destroy us.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4; All
Thanks for this post!

If you want to get a little of Gen. Crook...he's a figure in the historical novel, A Distant Trumpet by Paul Horgan. This is an excellent story of the s.w. Indian wars...honor and Army life, and so forth....

5 posted on 11/25/2006 4:15:57 AM PST by Molly Pitcher (We are Americans...the sons and daughters of liberty...*.from FReeper the Real fifi*))
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

What the old saying?All I want is results. We have been playing games too long and the credability of the U.S. is going up in flames and the Democrats don't help.


6 posted on 11/25/2006 4:16:32 AM PST by puppypusher
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

I wonder if the logic breaks down here:

The American Indian knew they were outnumbered by the white population. "White man is like the buffalo -- endless numbers".

The Islamist believes Muslims outnumber (or soon shall, "god" willing)the Infidels. They will fight on.

No strategy will defeat the Islamists. All we can do is hope to manage them. Even a "scorched earth", "glass parking lot" policy won't defeat them. They are with us until the end times.

In the line of work I do, I have said that "I'm in this fight until the last terrorist is reduced to a puff of pink mist". And I know I'll still be saying that when I'm 89, should the Lord tarry.


9 posted on 11/25/2006 4:29:02 AM PST by AngrySpud (Behold, I am The Anti-Crust ... Anti-Hillary)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
I thought it was 'Bear-coat' Miles who was the real practitioner of winter warfare. Prior to him... it was usually successful... but never fully acknowledged as a winning strategy against the tribes.
11 posted on 11/25/2006 4:33:07 AM PST by johnny7 ("We took a hell of a beating." -'Vinegar Joe' Stilwell)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Yeah, but don't forget that during the Apache War Crook ultimately lost the confidence of the U.S. government, which replaced him in 1886 with his long-time rival, General Nelson Miles. Miles, who was a lot more ruthless, finally subdued the Apaches by exiling Geronimo and his warriors to Florida, along with the Apache scouts who had served both generals so well in the defeat of their own people (although they were officially enlisted members of the army).

The point is that even if your strategy and tactics are sound, they are meaningless if the government does not support them.

12 posted on 11/25/2006 4:33:41 AM PST by Virginia Ridgerunner ("Si vis pacem para bellum")
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
I know that this quibble is beyond the larger point of the article which is that in suppressing a guerrilla, a commander ought always to improvise, adapt, and above all, divide and conquer.

My quibble is , and horse lovers will agree, that the author's assertion that small grass fed ponies are "faster" then shod, grain fed horses is simply contrary to fact. Whether by, "fast" the author means actually quicker in the run or simply being possessed of more endurance, a shod, grain fed horse will surpass a grass fed pony, all things being equal. And this is true summer or winter, although in winter the pony would need more grass for heat when little is available and have very little extra energy stored up to spare for exertions, and in summer, although grass would be more plentiful, the campaigning presumably harder.

In fact in my reading of the Indian wars it was the ultimate superiority of the Army horses that gave the cavalry a great advantage and that superiority was expressly attributable to these factors. I note that the author does not explicitly make the case that Miles was tied to his supply tail while the Indians were not. But this is a different argument.

An unshod horse will break down in hard riding over rough country long before a shod horse and he will play out sooner than the grain fed horse. You simply can not get uninterrupted hard work out of the grass fed horse for days on end. There simply is not enough energy in the grass. The horse would have to spend the bulk of the day grazing to accumulate enough energy to make up for yesterday's exertions as well as tomorrow's. I would further assume that in campaigning, the Indians would be unable to bring with them a herd of replacement horses.


15 posted on 11/25/2006 5:11:37 AM PST by nathanbedford ("I like to legislate. I feel I've done a lot of good." Sen. Robert Byrd)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

We have to be willing to wield other weapons that truly destroyed the Indian culture:

1. Promise one thing and do another, which is difficult in our PC days.
2. Spread smallpox and other such diseases to the Taliban.
3. Kill their means of support - poppies, goat herds, etc.
4. Place Taliban on remote reservations without means of support so they are dependent upon us.

I believe we can take the same approach with the tribes in iraq.


17 posted on 11/25/2006 5:18:00 AM PST by gotribe (There's still time to begin a war in Iraq.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
the pessimism and defeatism of the American public

I don't think this pessimism and defeatism belongs to the public at large. There is an anxiety present there, to be sure, and the corrupt media have translated that into pessimism to advance their left-wing masters into power.

That pessimism isn't based on reason, so it probably won't respond to reason. No amount of heads -- including that of Osama bin Laden himself -- is going to sway the liberal propaganda machine from its intended purpose: the betrayal of America.

We MUST NOT win this war!

30 posted on 11/25/2006 6:34:56 AM PST by IronJack (=)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Crook was far better against the Apache than against the Sioux. When Crazy Horse attacked Crook's forces at the Rosebud, he was surprised, despite the presence of a horde of Indian scouts. Worse, although he only suffered 16 dead in the attack (and killed about 20 Sioux), he had left with insufficient ammo for a genuine campaign and had to return immediately. That allowed Crazy Horse to turn his full attention to Custer.

The points, however, are valid---use natives when possible (an old British trick) and don't get carried away with the "destroy-the-village-to-save-it" approach.

The heroism of thousands in the Iraqi and Afghan militaries is testimony to the fact that they are willing to fight and die for democratic principles and peace.

42 posted on 11/25/2006 7:58:31 AM PST by LS
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Curious, the choice of the one General Officer more responsible than Custer for the greatest military debacle of the Indian Wars. Thirty miles away, 2500 men, bogged down and . . . flyfishing.

The Arizona campaign was a whole 'nother story, a story of unremarkable men doing rather remarkable things with the clouds and fog of war hanging low and dense. Crook, by himself, probably would have notched up another failure had it not been for other equally interesting characters. John Clum at San Carlos, Al Sieber, Chief of Scouts, the Indian scouts themselves, tenacious and (usually) loyal. The dynamic that these men created ended the Apache Wars. Could it have been done faster and better? Probably. But this is the way it was done.

The horse issue was not critical to Arizona. The Apache could dogtrot up to 60 miles a day WITH women and children, up and down mountain ranges, in and out of ravines. The few horses they had were used until they were useless, eaten, and more stolen. Crook, himself, rode a mule.

44 posted on 11/25/2006 8:12:22 AM PST by MARTIAL MONK
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
In 1890, when General Crook passed away, Red Cloud commented, "He never lied to us. His words gave us hope."

We need a modern-day George Crook to work on the Taliban and convince them to give up the fight. I doubt that anyone can convince most of the Al-Qaeda fanatics to lay down their arms, but a number of the Taliban might be willing to listen.

46 posted on 11/25/2006 8:24:59 AM PST by Stonewall Jackson ("I see storms on the horizon.")
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Geronimo's surrender at Canyon de los Embudos was not the end of the Indian problem in Arizona. The last pitched battle in the state was in . . . 1917. In 1936 some 600 volunteers gathered in Douglas to strike south and clean out remaining refuges for the Apache. The Mexican government nixed the expedition out of fear of a general Indian uprising.
47 posted on 11/25/2006 8:28:39 AM PST by MARTIAL MONK
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Now this is a brilliant piece of logic..
Whoever is running these war(s) seems to be of the Custer mentality variety..
53 posted on 11/25/2006 11:12:41 AM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole)
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