According to Jibaholic's "premise #1".....these kids and all the innocent people they represent are 'best off' living under tyranny.
It is impossible to discuss things with you if you deny what you have said, Jib. Try to say only what you mean.
Posted on 11/24/2006 6:46:08 PM PST by kristinn
I'm reading an astonishing number of comments on Free Republic these days by posters who have joined the ranks of the anti-American left in calling for an immediate withdrawal from Iraq. Some claim to have military experience, some claim to be patriotic Americans and some claim to be smarter than the rest.
These posters are joining the Murtha-Rangel-McDermott treason caucus. Oh, they say they love the troops, but their decision to abandon them in the field speaks otherwise.
Three years ago, the United States led an international coalition to rid the world of one of the worst regimes on the planet. Saddam Hussein was an international terrorist: He financed terrorism, he trained terrorists and he harbored terrorists. He waged war on Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Israel. He waged war on the people of Iraq, including genocidal campaigns against the Kurds in the north and the marsh Arabs in the south.
Saddam successfully subverted the Oil-for-Food program and was wearing down support for continuing the sanctions keeping him in check.
He had numerous contacts with al Qaeda over the years. He tried to assassinate a former U.S. president. He maintained research capabilities to implement nuclear, chemical and biological weapons as soon as the sanctions were lifted. There is evidence that some of these programs would have been operational within a year even with the sanctions in place.
The decision to remove Saddam and his regime as part of the Global War on Terror was correct.
Three-and-a-half years after Iraq and the world were liberated from Saddam and his terrorist regime, there are those on Free Republic who are clamoring to give up, surrender, cut and run, stab the troops in the back, betray the Iraqis, betray our allies in the GWOT, spit on the graves of our fallen heroes and join Cindy Sheehan, Medea Benjamin and Ramsey Clark in bringing about America's defeat in the GWOT.
It's only been three-and-a-half years--only six months since the freely elected government in Iraq was formed. In that time, what has been called a mini-Marshall Plan of construction and reconstruction has come to fruition. The Iraqis have held three national elections, they have held numerous local elections, fourteen out of eighteen Iraq provinces are relatively peaceful and stable.
Six months ago, when the Iraqi government was formed, the experts said the war would be taken to Baghdad because our enemies in the region could not abide the example of a free, democratic society in the Middle East. For once, the experts were right. The battle of Baghdad has been a prolonged Tet Offensive style operation of headline-grabbing attacks intended to sap the morale of Americans and Iraqis alike.
From what I've been reading on Free Republic lately, a lot of Freepers have fallen for the enemy's ploy and are howling like barking moonbats for our immediate withdrawal from Iraq. Some of that talk is couched in talk of 'we're fighting a PC war like Vietnam!' The soldiers I met in Iraq recently told Debra Argel Bastian to pass on a message to the Vietnam vets criticizing the war: With all due respect to your service, this is not Vietnam. It is not being fought like Vietnam. Please let us finish our mission.
But our enemy is playing the Vietnam ploy to great benefit. They know they can count on the American and world media to broadcast their propaganda. They work with leftist Americans to sabotage the war effort at home. They know these leftist Americans have allies in the Democratic party. They know they do not need a military victory--only political and psychological victories are needed to defeat America.
You guys are playing right in to their hands. Congratulations.
There are those who argue that murder and dictatorship is the mindset of the Middle East and that will not be changed by our actions. Funny how those who smugly denigrate the Arab peoples' capacity for freedom forget the wholesale slaughter of millions of Westerners by Westerners at the hands of Western dictatorships just a few generations past.
I hear complaints that the Iraqis aren't standing up. Yet, to use one common example, when police recruits are slaughtered in bombings, Iraqis line up the next day at the same recruiting center. The insurgency is small in number, but they are able to do enough damage on a daily basis to stretch out the time it will take to secure the whole of Iraq.
At this time of our testing, the American people are starting to go wobbly. Sadly, many Freepers are too. Our troops and their Commander-in-Chief are not, thank God. It's only been three-and-a-half years. The progress made has been phenomonal. Throw in the towel now, and you'll just have the terrorists follow us home. Everyone knows that, including you. I'm not willing to pay that price, not now, not ever, but you are.
Let me close by offering similar sentiments recently offered by two men 'in the know' on the situation in Iraq who are not giving up. First, Kurdish Regional Government Prime Minister Barzani: "When I was in the United States recently and read the negative news in the Washington Post, New York Times and in the network TV broadcasts, I even wondered if things had gotten so bad since I had left that I shouldn't return."
Next, Gen. Abizaid: "When I come to Washington, I feel despair. When I'm in Iraq with my commanders, when I talk to our soldiers, when I talk to the Iraqi leadership, they are not despairing."
Jibaholic posted #1836 as a post from me, and I did not say it.
I never use foul language, and it appears that he is using someone else's quote to create the impression that I have said things I have not said.
An apology for your 'error' will be accepted at any time, Jib.
Read your own tagline, and apply it to the people of Iraq.
Or is it only you who should be the recipient of God's love because you were born in America? If you were born in Iraq and some 'Christian' in America said you deserved to be oppressed, how much would you be drawn to his faith?
Have you even thought this through?
Premise #1: People will succeed if you give them the opportunityMy switch to conservatism has been largely driven by the realization that Premise #1 is, unfortunately, wrong. I was an atheist who found out that the Bible had it right about 2000 years ago:
13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. --Matthew 7:13
I am sorry for going over the line by calling you an 'idiot.' (btw, those are not all my quotes. Did you do that deliberately to mislead?)
You are right, I incorrectly clicked one of "Alas! Babylon's" responses to me thinking it was yours. I'm sorry about that.
Actually, I said #1836, but I took it back immediately...I was for it, before I was against it, just like your Senator John F'n!
You are right, I incorrectly clicked one of "Alas! Babylon's" responses thinking it was yours. I'm sorry about that.
Now do some soul searching about your blanket condemnation of many innocent people who deserve freedom as much as you and I do. They are created in God's image as you and I are. They are not deserving to be oppressed any more than you or I are.
Perhaps you should move out of New England into 'flyover' country. You may well find out how very much liberalism you still have left in you.
(Thanks for backing me up, Alas. :)
I am not doing it, they are doing it to themselves. I cannot force people to take the narrow gate. If you ever want to get a tiny glimpse at how God must have felt during Old Testament times, just look at Iraq. The right way is there, it is so obvious to us. But Muslims will not take the narrow gate.
Read your own tagline, and apply it to the people of Iraq.
I can't force people to do the right thing. If I could, it would raise interesting ethical questions: should we force people to do the right thing, or allow them to make their own mistakes? But that question is moot, because you can't force them to do the right thing.
Or is it only you who should be the recipient of God's love because you were born in America? If you were born in Iraq and some 'Christian' in America said you deserved to be oppressed, how much would you be drawn to his faith?
I never said they deserve to be oppressed, but I did say that as Muslims they will create an oppressive government for themselves. Like it or not, we're going to have to let the slow work of spreading the Gospel to lay the foundation before we build a civil society in Iraq. This will take decades, even centuries. You've gotten the cart before the horse.
No one deserves to be oppressed. But most people take the wide gate. I can't grab someone and force them through the narrow gate. They have to freely decide to take it for themselves. Our Christian interests are better served through missionary work than nation-building. This is going to take many decades, probably many centuries.
But regarding your last sentence about my 'getting the cart before the course'........do you believe in the Sovereignty of God? Do you believe, as Scripture says, that he puts leaders in place, and removes them? Do you believe that world events are under His Sovereign will?
You just said that the Iraqi people deserve to live under a dictatorship.
But most people take the wide gate.
You are taking one verse of Scripture and distorting it to suit your political will.
One has nothing to do with the other. Get deeper into the Word.
I can't grab someone and force them through the narrow gate
This has nothing to do with the military and political need to get rid of Saddam Hussein and the critical importance of having an ally in the ME.
And, btw, I can see that you are both young and still liberal, but this is really not about YOU, and what you can and cannot do. Can you at least try to discuss the issues without it's being centered on yourself?
Or not?
Of course I believe in the sovereignty of God. And there is a purpose to everything that happens, but I do not presume to know God's purpose. It suppose it could be the Benign Domino Theory. But I doubt it.
According to Jibaholic's "premise #1".....these kids and all the innocent people they represent are 'best off' living under tyranny.
It is impossible to discuss things with you if you deny what you have said, Jib. Try to say only what you mean.
At the risk of starting another loooooong conversation, I'll comment on that:
You have some "entrenched liberalism" from the old days, wash it off man, it doesn't become you.
The answer to your above "soul searching and/or trying to find yourself" is brutally simple: If letting these people make their own mistakes means killing us or become another Iran headed by ayatollah al Sadr, the answer is: HELL NO!!
Would this be adequate enough for your social experiments? ?
Do you think that the liberation of Iraq under our Christian President, George W. Bush was outside of God's Sovereign will..........or not?
No I didn't. I said (about 100 times) that Muslims are incapable of democracy. What I want is for them to accept Jesus as their savior and take the narrow gate instead. But I can't force them to do this.
And, btw, I can see that you are both young and still liberal, but this is really not about YOU, and what you can and cannot do. Can you at least try to discuss the issues without it's being centered on yourself?
Over the course of this thread you have accused me of racism, bad theology, and being a liberal. Then you accuse me of talking about myself!
On the money. He doesn't even see it.
The answer to your above "soul searching and/or trying to find yourself" is brutally simple: If letting these people make their own mistakes means killing us or become another Iran headed by ayatollah al Sadr, the answer is: HELL NO!!
While I hesitate to say "Amen" to "HELL NO!!" I think that's what I'm going to say anyway. :)
OhioWFan and I are debating the nation-building side of Iraq, which I think is futile. I do think the United States should defend itself, preemptively if necessary. I think we should invade Iran and take out their nuclear programs.
One of the problems with Iraq is that it makes it politically difficult to invade Iran.
It was part of God's plan. But is God's plan for the United States and Iraq the same as Bush's plan?
(I take back the anti-Semitic [ I never used the term 'racist', btw....once again, misleading deliberately?]. I think your problems are more likely based on the bad theology and liberal politics).
Incidentally, while we're talking about you........you never answered about whether or not you were a student of a New England University.......or recent graduate. That would explain a lot of your problems as well.
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