LOU DOBBS, HOST: The Pentagon calls it a myth, trying to downplay reports of new strategies devised for Iraq. But Pentagon officials admit senior officials are brainstorming on ways to move forward there.
I'll talk tonight with the incoming chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Democrat Ike Skelton. An avid supporter of the military, he's been an outspoken critic of this war.
Jamie McIntyre reports tonight on the military's effort to strike down speculation about new strategies for the war in Iraq.
MCINTYRE (voice over): Pentagon officials say there are a lot of myths that have grown up around its internal review of Iraq's strategy. Perhaps the biggest is that the reappraisal will produce a formal report or make any firm recommendations for the way ahead. Instead, officials say what's been dubbed the "Strategic Dialogue Group" is more of a brainstorming exercise among 16 of the brightest military officers, mostly colonels or equivalent rank, who are fresh from the front lines in Iraq.
They've been meeting regularly with Chairman Peter Pace and the rest of the joint chiefs, providing insights, advice, and an unvarnished reality check, according to Pentagon insiders, so Pace can hone his advice to the president, which he hasn't yet offered.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I haven't made any decisions about troop increases or troop decreases, and won't until I hear from a variety of sources, including our own United States military.
MCINTYRE: Pentagon officials say a second myth is that the Pentagon group has outlined three options described by "The Washington Post" as "Go Big," for sending a lot more troops, "Go Home," for pulling out quickly, or "Go Long," for the current plan of stepped-up training for Iraqi troops, along with perhaps a short boost in U.S. troop levels.
"The Post" report did prompt outgoing House Armed Services Committee chairman Duncan Hunter to label his latest idea with a similar catch phrase...
REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R), CALIFORNIA: Go Iraqi.
MCINTYRE: ... calling for Iraqi units in nine relatively peaceful provinces to be moved to the front lines.
HUNTER: In those provinces are 27 Iraqi battalions. Those Iraqi battalions could be sent into the contested areas in Baghdad and should be sent into those contested areas.
Meanwhile, former secretary of state Henry Kissinger told the BBC he's concluded the U.S. cannot win a clear military victory.
HENRY KISSINGER, FMR. SECRETARY OF STATE: If you mean by clear military victory an Iraqi government that can be established and whose writ runs across the whole country, I don't believe that is possible.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: Duncan Hunter's "Go Iraqi" proposal is pretty much in line with what General John Abizaid, the top Persian gulf commander, outlined as his preferred strategy last week before Congress, pushing Iraqi forces into the lead before the violence in Iraq spins out of control -- Lou. DOBBS: Jamie, this announcement of this evaluation was announced as the Iraq Study Group's -- that discussion about what they're bringing forth heated up. So what we're hearing now is that there won't be a report, there won't be recommendations, and it's just brainstorming?
What in the world does that mean?
MCINTYRE: Well, what it means is that General Pace has basically asked for who he thinks are the brightest officers to come in, tell him what they really think, and then he's going to be the one that synthesizes that in his head, and he's going to advise President Bush when the Iraq Study Group comes out whether he supports what the Iraq Study Groups says, or whether he thinks his officers have a better idea.
But he wants to have a handle -- a fresh perspective. He wants a complete scrub of everything. And to do that, he's relying not on the generals at the Pentagon, but the commanders that he thinks have the best grasp of what was actually going on in the ground in Iraq.
DOBBS: But not the generals?
MCINTYRE: Not necessarily the generals. Some of the people who are actually on the front line.
DOBBS: And this is the first time he's done this?
MCINTYRE: Well, it's been going on actually for a month or so. It was very quiet at first, but then it became -- it sort of came out in the last couple of weeks and he acknowledged it publicly for the first time a few weeks ago.
DOBBS: All right. Jamie, thank you.
Jamie McIntyre from the Pentagon.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0611/20/ldt.01.html
This was just too funny last night. Lawrence O'Donnell flipped his wig!
Guests: Michael Crowley, Terry Holt, Matthew Felling, Bob Kohn, Ashlan Gorse, Tom O¡®Neil
JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST: Memo to the president: You cannot win this war. (INAUDIBLE) message on Iraq from none other than Henry the K. Mr. Kissinger, the same man who spent the last two years counseling Mssrs. Bush and Cheney on how to avoid another Vietnam, that same foreign policy icon who oversaw America¡®s first defeat in war, has now concluded the United States military is headed towards its second. The Iraq war is a lost cause, Kissinger believes, and he is part of an every expanding majority.
But if most of America has given up on Mr. Bush¡®s war, will they embrace one of the incoming Democratic majority¡®s most powerful chairmen and his proposal to push a military draft? And how will this White House react to the stunning reality that if this war is to have a reasonably sane ending, it will be because empowered (ph) terror states like Iran and Syria will be asked to step in to keep the peace. What a long, tortured path we¡®ve taken since being too arrogant to allow France and Germany in on the spoils of reconstruction in 2003. Ah, those were the halcyon days, weren¡®t they?
To answer those questions, let¡®s bring in former executive producer of NBC¡®s ¡°The West Wing¡± Lawrence O¡®Donnell. He¡®s of course, a frequent contributor to the Huffingtonpost.com. Also Michael Crowley, senior editor for ¡°The New Republic,¡± and Republican strategist Terry Holt.
Lawrence, let me begin with you. Kissinger says it¡®s over. Is the White House finally listening?
LAWRENCE O¡®DONNELL, POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, they have to listen. They have to hear it. But there¡®s really nothing much they can do about it. Now, Kissinger says it is a hopeless exercise now, we can¡®t win it by any definition of winning that we might come up with. But he then says, in pure Kissingerian form, we must not leave. This was his Vietnam calculation, that we must not leave.
And so now you¡®re left with the princes of foreign policy on the Republican side of the world acknowledging that it¡®s unwinnable, that there¡®s no real achievement for us to get there, but of course, we must stay because if we leave, it will become unstable and it will be become a disaster, much like what they said about Vietnam, which the president of the United States¡ªthe second president of the United States in a row has just finished visiting as the completely stable country that it is today.
So the Kissinger doctrine in place now is, It¡®s unwinnable, but we must stay, which is a horrible message to give to the American troops over there, to say, You¡®re not going to win anything, but we¡®re going to leave you there and an undetermined number of you are going to die in this exercise that you will not win, and at a certain point, when we feel enough face has been saved, we will remove ourselves from that exercise.
SCARBOROUGH: But Michael Crowley, I mean, is this president going to be able to remain in denial, or will this Kissinger confession finally change his outlook?
MICHAEL CROWLEY, ¡°THE NEW REPUBLIC¡±: I think he can¡®t be in denial anymore. I don¡®t think people are buying denial anymore, and I think people like Kissinger are making it impossible for him to be in denial. I mean, the state of denial, so to speak, is finally coming to an end.
SCARBOROUGH: But what about Kissinger¡®s statement, We can¡®t win the war, but we¡®ve got to stay there?
CROWLEY: Well, I mean it¡®s just incredibly¡ªit¡®s horrifying, first of all, that we¡®re hearing this right after the election. I mean, it was clear that the election was something of a referendum on Iraq, and all these people are sort of coming forward now to say all these new and interesting things about the war that they presumably had been able to determine a handful of weeks ago.
SCARBOROUGH: Well, you fire Rumsfeld the day after the election results come in, and now you have Henry Kissinger, the guy that¡®s trying to prevent another Vietnam, coming out saying it¡®s an unwinnable war but we have to stay there. What if you were a father or a mother or a husband or a wife with a loved one over in Iraq, and you¡®ve got military¡ªor you¡®ve got political leaders saying, We can¡®t win this war, but we¡®re going to stay there anyway?
CROWLEY: Well, Joe, the amazing thing is¡ªyou know, that famous line of John Kerry from the end of the Vietnam war, ¡°How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?¡±
SCARBOROUGH: Yes.
CROWLEY: I mean, it¡®s an incredibly pertinent line right now, I mean, almost amazingly so, almost eerily so. It¡®s unbelievable that we¡®re back in such a similar situation, but here we are. And unfortunately, nobody has a good answer. They just have incredibly bleak diagnoses, like we¡®ve heard from Henry Kissinger.
SCARBOROUGH: You know, Terry Holt, we¡®ve all learned that after the Tet offensive in 1968, Americans turned against the war, but the poll numbers now against the Iraq war seem to be so much higher, 66 percent of Americans now disapprove of this war in Iraq, only 31 percent approve. And as you know, Terry, generals since Vietnam have been telling us that we can¡®t fight a war under those type of political realities. Is it time to leave?
TERRY HOLT, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, it¡®s not, obviously. We still have to get the Iraqis in the game here. There are several brigades of Iraqi army people who have been trained, have been equipped, and they need to get in the game. You saw Duncan Hunter from the Armed Services Committee today say that we need to move the Iraqi troops up to the front line, get them in this business, because after all, I mean, the violence that¡®s going on in Iraq is Iraqi on Iraqi. And it¡®s tragic, but it is the circumstances that we face.
And I think there¡®s actually, after this election, a range of options that may not have been viable prior to the election but that now are. You have Senator McCain talking about bringing more troops in, perhaps, to oversee a stabilization and a redeployment. You talk about the dialogue that can go on between Iraq and Iran and Syria and all of the important issues that can be discussed there. And then you have this ability to put the Iraqi people in charge of their own destiny. And ultimately, the president¡®s policies from the very beginning have been about putting the Iraqis in charge of the Iraqi future...
SCARBOROUGH: But Terry...
HOLT: ... and that¡®s got to be what it is.
SCARBOROUGH: You know, in 2003, Terry, we wouldn¡®t let the Germans and the French come into Iraq after we won that war in short order, the hot part of the military campaign. Now we¡®ve gotten to a point where we¡®re going to bring terror states like Iran and Syria in and allow them to stabilize this country that we can¡®t stabilize?
HOLT: Well, I see what you¡®re saying, Joe, and it does seem odd. But the fact of the matter is that Iran and Syria have hundreds of miles of borders that impact directly the security situation in Iraq, whereas Germany and France, they were never in the game to begin with. They were never in a position to put significant numbers of troops in the game. In fact, you know, the French were in charge of an African project earlier this year. They wound up sending a couple of hundred troops where they¡®d promised tens of thousands.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: That is the rub. I mean, the French don¡®t have the people to go in there. Lawrence...
HOLT: Unless you want to surrender, you can¡®t bring the French in.
SCARBOROUGH: Now, Lawrence, obviously, things have deteriorated in a terrible way. A lot of people are saying we don¡®t have enough troops to win over there. We can¡®t do what John McCain wants to do by sending in more troops. So Charlie Rangel, the incoming chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, as you know, the man that¡®s going to be one of the most powerful people on Capitol Hill, had this to say about an upcoming military draft. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CHARLIE RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: There¡®s no question in my mind that this president and this administration would never have invaded Iraq, especially on the flimsy evidence that was presented to the Congress, if indeed we had a draft and members of Congress and the administration thought that their kids from their communities would be placed in harm¡®s way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCARBOROUGH: And of course, Charlie now is pushing, Lawrence, for a military draft. Is that...
O¡®DONNELL: Well, you know, he...
SCARBOROUGH: What¡®s he¡ªwhat¡®s he trying to do, snatch defeat from the jaws of victory for Democrats?
O¡®DONNELL: Well, you know, he suggested this a couple years ago, and he was fairly open last time around about not being serious. He says this time that he is serious. What he makes, Joe, is a very, very serious point, which is to say we now have an American combat force that has no connection to the society at large. We have a military culture in the United States...
HOLT: That¡®s just not right, Larry. I mean...
(CROSSTALK)
O¡®DONNELL: Oh, yes? How many combat veterans do we have on this panel tonight? I don¡®t like to hear...
HOLT: There are dozens of...
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Hold on a second!
O¡®DONNELL: ... cowardly warmongers¡ª
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: One at a time!
O¡®DONNELL: Not one of us has the courage to put ourselves in a military uniform...
SCARBOROUGH: Well, Lawrence...
O¡®DONNELL: ... or ever go into combat! So don¡®t you dare tell me...
SCARBOROUGH: Lawrence...
O¡®DONNELL: ... that you are in any way connected to this military!
You¡®re as much of a coward...
SCARBOROUGH: Lawrence!
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Hold on a second, Lawrence!~
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Hold on! Lawrence, you are so out of line, I don¡®t even know where to begin! Walter Cronkite¡ªI don¡®t know if Walter Cronkite served in World War II or the Korean war, but Walter Cronkite could come on and talk about the Tet offensive. Yes, I am connected to people who are over in Iraq right now.
O¡®DONNELL: Joe, you are connected...
SCARBOROUGH: I know people...
O¡®DONNELL: ... Terry Holt is not.
SCARBOROUGH: I know people...
O¡®DONNELL: Terry Holt is the typical...
SCARBOROUGH: ... over in Afghanistan.
O¡®DONNELL: ... draft-dodging...
SCARBOROUGH: I know people all the time that have to go over there.
I know wives who have left their husbands!
O¡®DONNELL: I know you do, Joe.
SCARBOROUGH: I know husbands that have 2-year-old kids they have hardly seen at all! There are people who are connected to this war. I don¡®t think, though...
O¡®DONNELL: Does Terry Holt have any relatives in Iraq? I don¡®t think so.
HOLT: No, but I have members of my church, members of my community, people that I have met with. And Larry, come on...
O¡®DONNELL: And you would never dream of it yourself! You live your whole life...
HOLT: But Larry, look at the reality!
(CROSSTALK)
O¡®DONNELL: ... supporting this kind of war without ever¡ªone minute of your life has not been spent contemplating military service yourself, have you!
HOLT: But let me make a point to you, sir!
O¡®DONNELL: Tell the truth!
HOLT: Let me make a point to you...
O¡®DONNELL: You¡®re just like me, you wouldn¡®t dare enlist in the military...
HOLT: I¡®m sorry, I just am trying...
O¡®DONNELL: ... because you are as afraid of it as I am!
HOLT: ... to interrupt to make a point to you, and that is that people in Columbus, Ohio, and Indianapolis, Indiana, and Des Moines, Iowa, have friends and families that have suffered and sacrificed in this war.
O¡®DONNELL: And you don¡®t!
HOLT: And for you to suggest that a draft would make people hurt more, I think that¡®s unfair to the millions of military families around this country...
O¡®DONNELL: What Rangel is saying is a draft will connect the military...
HOLT: ... that have made a sacrifice.
O¡®DONNELL: ... to the wider American population, which is absolutely true.
CROWLEY: Joe, may I budge in for a minute? I think that maybe the key point is that political, and frankly, media leadership in this country. So it¡®s not that average Americans have no connection to the military or that tiny numbers of Americans do, but unfortunately, I think the people who make the decisions about war and peace in the corridors power and at the newspapers, to some extent, editorial boards¡ªthose people are all too disconnected from the culture of the military.
SCARBOROUGH: And Michael Crowley¡ªMichael Crowley, that¡®s a great point.
CROWLEY: And by the way, I am one of those...
SCARBOROUGH: The fact is...
CROWLEY: And that applies to me. I¡®m not trying to point the finger.
SCARBOROUGH: Right.
CROWLEY: And it paralyzes my thinking about these issues.
SCARBOROUGH: Well, sure. And it¡®s not that middle America is not connected to the loss that our men and women are suffering overseas. It is a fact that elites¡ªand because I¡®ve got a TV show, by my definition before I got into TV what an elite would be, I would be one of those. Elites in this country, people in the media, people in Congress, people in the executive branch, they are disconnected.
I remember hearing Doris Kearns Goodwin talking about her son deciding from Harvard to serve this country and talking about how she¡®d go to dinner parties, and people would like at her like her son was out of his mind. Of course, he wasn¡®t.
HOLT: Joe, does a draft make that happen?
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: And Lawrence¡ªlet me ask that question to you, Lawrence, because we know how the last draft went. I mean, the elites are still going to be able to keep their kids out of the draft.
O¡®DONNELL: Yes. Tell that to John Kerry and everybody else from his Yale class who enlisted. The draft put the pressure...
HOLT: Whatever!
O¡®DONNELL: ... on people to...
SCARBOROUGH: John Kerry...
O¡®DONNELL: ... face the decision...
SCARBOROUGH: John Kerry went in in 1965...
HOLT: The draft brought people in the middle...
(CROSSTALK)
HOLT: Hold on. Hold on. Hold on.
O¡®DONNELL: My brother went in and I have cousins going in...
HOLT: Go ahead. Go ahead. Talk.
O¡®DONNELL: ... who don¡®t want to go in, and they had to go in! So it did happen, and the draft did connect you. Everybody had a draft number, and they had this relationship to this war at the time...
HOLT: But does it make them a more effective fighting force?
(CROSSTALK)
O¡®DONNELL: Terry Holt gets to live completely apart from this war.
Not a single relative involved. Nobody he cares about does he have to worry about going to Iraq.
HOLT: Well, I wouldn¡®t attack you personally, Larry. I¡®m sorry.
(CROSSTALK)
HOLT: I¡®m just not going to go there with you.
SCARBOROUGH: That¡®s an awful personal¡ªthat¡®s an awful personal...
O¡®DONNELL: It is personal!
SCARBOROUGH: ... attack, isn¡®t it?
O¡®DONNELL: President Bush has two kids who belong in Iraq, and they¡®re not there! And if they had to...
HOLT: Oh, my goodness!
O¡®DONNELL: ... go there, he would make a different decision! It is a disgusting disconnect...
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Hold on a second! Lawrence...
O¡®DONNELL: ... from military service!
SCARBOROUGH: ... I don¡®t know why you think that people who don¡®t want to serve in the armed services should serve in the armed services...
(CROSSTALK)
O¡®DONNELL: People who are afraid of the armed services should not advocate war!
SCARBOROUGH: Lawrence...
O¡®DONNELL: If you¡®re afraid of being in the armed services...
SCARBOROUGH: Lawrence...
O¡®DONNELL: ... you cannot advocate war!
SCARBOROUGH: Lawrence, you are just so out of bounds tonight. Let me finish my sentence. We¡®ve got over a million people that serve in our military, that do it proudly, that are proud of what they¡®re doing, and as much as this may shock you and other people, they¡®re very proud of what they¡®re doing in Iraq. They¡®re proud of what they¡®re doing in Afghanistan. They¡®re proud of what they¡®re doing in the Balkans. Don¡®t tell them...
O¡®DONNELL: I¡®ve had family in Iraq...
SCARBOROUGH: ... that they¡®re the dregs of society!
O¡®DONNELL: ... myself, Joe. What I¡®m telling you is if someone is afraid to put on a military uniform and afraid of combat, they have no right to advocate war.
HOLT: Who¡®s talking about being afraid? We¡®re talking about...
O¡®DONNELL: You Terry! You¡®re afraid!
HOLT: ... a policy...
O¡®DONNELL: You didn¡®t do it!~
HOLT: Larry...
O¡®DONNELL: And you advocate war!
HOLT: We¡®re not talking about fear...
O¡®DONNELL: Just like President Bush!
HOLT: ... or no fear. We¡®re talking about...
O¡®DONNELL: He was afraid of combat, and he advocates war.
HOLT: Well...
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Hold on. Did you say that about Bill Clinton also?
O¡®DONNELL: Yes! Bill Clinton was a draft dodger, classic afraid, terrified draft dodger.
O¡®DONNELL: He
SCARBOROUGH: OK. And he sent our trips overseas...
O¡®DONNELL: That¡®s right.
SCARBOROUGH: ... and aren¡®t you glad that he sent them to Bosnia and Kosovo?
O¡®DONNELL: I¡®m not sure that I am glad that he sent them there.
SCARBOROUGH: Well, there were a hell of a lot of people that were being killed there...
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: It rather tends to limit the 2008 Democratic presidential field. I mean, Lawrence, I¡®m sympathetic to a lot of what you¡®re saying, but it makes it a little bit difficult for the Democratic Party to continue to exist...
O¡®DONNELL: Well, the Democrats will continue to be as hypocritical about it as the Republicans...
(CROSSTALK)
O¡®DONNELL: ... from war cowards loathsome!
SCARBOROUGH: All right, we¡®re going to have to leave it there.
Lawrence O¡®Donnell, you came to fight tonight. Michael Crowley, Terry, thanks for being with us.
HOLT: Thanks, Joe.
SCARBOROUGH: It¡®s an important debate you¡®re going to be hearing in the coming future, I¡®ll guarantee you that, if Charlie Rangel has his way.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15830521/