This was just too funny last night. Lawrence O'Donnell flipped his wig!
Guests: Michael Crowley, Terry Holt, Matthew Felling, Bob Kohn, Ashlan Gorse, Tom O¡®Neil
JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST: Memo to the president: You cannot win this war. (INAUDIBLE) message on Iraq from none other than Henry the K. Mr. Kissinger, the same man who spent the last two years counseling Mssrs. Bush and Cheney on how to avoid another Vietnam, that same foreign policy icon who oversaw America¡®s first defeat in war, has now concluded the United States military is headed towards its second. The Iraq war is a lost cause, Kissinger believes, and he is part of an every expanding majority.
But if most of America has given up on Mr. Bush¡®s war, will they embrace one of the incoming Democratic majority¡®s most powerful chairmen and his proposal to push a military draft? And how will this White House react to the stunning reality that if this war is to have a reasonably sane ending, it will be because empowered (ph) terror states like Iran and Syria will be asked to step in to keep the peace. What a long, tortured path we¡®ve taken since being too arrogant to allow France and Germany in on the spoils of reconstruction in 2003. Ah, those were the halcyon days, weren¡®t they?
To answer those questions, let¡®s bring in former executive producer of NBC¡®s ¡°The West Wing¡± Lawrence O¡®Donnell. He¡®s of course, a frequent contributor to the Huffingtonpost.com. Also Michael Crowley, senior editor for ¡°The New Republic,¡± and Republican strategist Terry Holt.
Lawrence, let me begin with you. Kissinger says it¡®s over. Is the White House finally listening?
LAWRENCE O¡®DONNELL, POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, they have to listen. They have to hear it. But there¡®s really nothing much they can do about it. Now, Kissinger says it is a hopeless exercise now, we can¡®t win it by any definition of winning that we might come up with. But he then says, in pure Kissingerian form, we must not leave. This was his Vietnam calculation, that we must not leave.
And so now you¡®re left with the princes of foreign policy on the Republican side of the world acknowledging that it¡®s unwinnable, that there¡®s no real achievement for us to get there, but of course, we must stay because if we leave, it will become unstable and it will be become a disaster, much like what they said about Vietnam, which the president of the United States¡ªthe second president of the United States in a row has just finished visiting as the completely stable country that it is today.
So the Kissinger doctrine in place now is, It¡®s unwinnable, but we must stay, which is a horrible message to give to the American troops over there, to say, You¡®re not going to win anything, but we¡®re going to leave you there and an undetermined number of you are going to die in this exercise that you will not win, and at a certain point, when we feel enough face has been saved, we will remove ourselves from that exercise.
SCARBOROUGH: But Michael Crowley, I mean, is this president going to be able to remain in denial, or will this Kissinger confession finally change his outlook?
MICHAEL CROWLEY, ¡°THE NEW REPUBLIC¡±: I think he can¡®t be in denial anymore. I don¡®t think people are buying denial anymore, and I think people like Kissinger are making it impossible for him to be in denial. I mean, the state of denial, so to speak, is finally coming to an end.
SCARBOROUGH: But what about Kissinger¡®s statement, We can¡®t win the war, but we¡®ve got to stay there?
CROWLEY: Well, I mean it¡®s just incredibly¡ªit¡®s horrifying, first of all, that we¡®re hearing this right after the election. I mean, it was clear that the election was something of a referendum on Iraq, and all these people are sort of coming forward now to say all these new and interesting things about the war that they presumably had been able to determine a handful of weeks ago.
SCARBOROUGH: Well, you fire Rumsfeld the day after the election results come in, and now you have Henry Kissinger, the guy that¡®s trying to prevent another Vietnam, coming out saying it¡®s an unwinnable war but we have to stay there. What if you were a father or a mother or a husband or a wife with a loved one over in Iraq, and you¡®ve got military¡ªor you¡®ve got political leaders saying, We can¡®t win this war, but we¡®re going to stay there anyway?
CROWLEY: Well, Joe, the amazing thing is¡ªyou know, that famous line of John Kerry from the end of the Vietnam war, ¡°How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?¡±
SCARBOROUGH: Yes.
CROWLEY: I mean, it¡®s an incredibly pertinent line right now, I mean, almost amazingly so, almost eerily so. It¡®s unbelievable that we¡®re back in such a similar situation, but here we are. And unfortunately, nobody has a good answer. They just have incredibly bleak diagnoses, like we¡®ve heard from Henry Kissinger.
SCARBOROUGH: You know, Terry Holt, we¡®ve all learned that after the Tet offensive in 1968, Americans turned against the war, but the poll numbers now against the Iraq war seem to be so much higher, 66 percent of Americans now disapprove of this war in Iraq, only 31 percent approve. And as you know, Terry, generals since Vietnam have been telling us that we can¡®t fight a war under those type of political realities. Is it time to leave?
TERRY HOLT, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, it¡®s not, obviously. We still have to get the Iraqis in the game here. There are several brigades of Iraqi army people who have been trained, have been equipped, and they need to get in the game. You saw Duncan Hunter from the Armed Services Committee today say that we need to move the Iraqi troops up to the front line, get them in this business, because after all, I mean, the violence that¡®s going on in Iraq is Iraqi on Iraqi. And it¡®s tragic, but it is the circumstances that we face.
And I think there¡®s actually, after this election, a range of options that may not have been viable prior to the election but that now are. You have Senator McCain talking about bringing more troops in, perhaps, to oversee a stabilization and a redeployment. You talk about the dialogue that can go on between Iraq and Iran and Syria and all of the important issues that can be discussed there. And then you have this ability to put the Iraqi people in charge of their own destiny. And ultimately, the president¡®s policies from the very beginning have been about putting the Iraqis in charge of the Iraqi future...
SCARBOROUGH: But Terry...
HOLT: ... and that¡®s got to be what it is.
SCARBOROUGH: You know, in 2003, Terry, we wouldn¡®t let the Germans and the French come into Iraq after we won that war in short order, the hot part of the military campaign. Now we¡®ve gotten to a point where we¡®re going to bring terror states like Iran and Syria in and allow them to stabilize this country that we can¡®t stabilize?
HOLT: Well, I see what you¡®re saying, Joe, and it does seem odd. But the fact of the matter is that Iran and Syria have hundreds of miles of borders that impact directly the security situation in Iraq, whereas Germany and France, they were never in the game to begin with. They were never in a position to put significant numbers of troops in the game. In fact, you know, the French were in charge of an African project earlier this year. They wound up sending a couple of hundred troops where they¡®d promised tens of thousands.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: That is the rub. I mean, the French don¡®t have the people to go in there. Lawrence...
HOLT: Unless you want to surrender, you can¡®t bring the French in.
SCARBOROUGH: Now, Lawrence, obviously, things have deteriorated in a terrible way. A lot of people are saying we don¡®t have enough troops to win over there. We can¡®t do what John McCain wants to do by sending in more troops. So Charlie Rangel, the incoming chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, as you know, the man that¡®s going to be one of the most powerful people on Capitol Hill, had this to say about an upcoming military draft. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CHARLIE RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: There¡®s no question in my mind that this president and this administration would never have invaded Iraq, especially on the flimsy evidence that was presented to the Congress, if indeed we had a draft and members of Congress and the administration thought that their kids from their communities would be placed in harm¡®s way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCARBOROUGH: And of course, Charlie now is pushing, Lawrence, for a military draft. Is that...
O¡®DONNELL: Well, you know, he...
SCARBOROUGH: What¡®s he¡ªwhat¡®s he trying to do, snatch defeat from the jaws of victory for Democrats?
O¡®DONNELL: Well, you know, he suggested this a couple years ago, and he was fairly open last time around about not being serious. He says this time that he is serious. What he makes, Joe, is a very, very serious point, which is to say we now have an American combat force that has no connection to the society at large. We have a military culture in the United States...
HOLT: That¡®s just not right, Larry. I mean...
(CROSSTALK)
O¡®DONNELL: Oh, yes? How many combat veterans do we have on this panel tonight? I don¡®t like to hear...
HOLT: There are dozens of...
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Hold on a second!
O¡®DONNELL: ... cowardly warmongers¡ª
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: One at a time!
O¡®DONNELL: Not one of us has the courage to put ourselves in a military uniform...
SCARBOROUGH: Well, Lawrence...
O¡®DONNELL: ... or ever go into combat! So don¡®t you dare tell me...
SCARBOROUGH: Lawrence...
O¡®DONNELL: ... that you are in any way connected to this military!
You¡®re as much of a coward...
SCARBOROUGH: Lawrence!
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Hold on a second, Lawrence!~
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Hold on! Lawrence, you are so out of line, I don¡®t even know where to begin! Walter Cronkite¡ªI don¡®t know if Walter Cronkite served in World War II or the Korean war, but Walter Cronkite could come on and talk about the Tet offensive. Yes, I am connected to people who are over in Iraq right now.
O¡®DONNELL: Joe, you are connected...
SCARBOROUGH: I know people...
O¡®DONNELL: ... Terry Holt is not.
SCARBOROUGH: I know people...
O¡®DONNELL: Terry Holt is the typical...
SCARBOROUGH: ... over in Afghanistan.
O¡®DONNELL: ... draft-dodging...
SCARBOROUGH: I know people all the time that have to go over there.
I know wives who have left their husbands!
O¡®DONNELL: I know you do, Joe.
SCARBOROUGH: I know husbands that have 2-year-old kids they have hardly seen at all! There are people who are connected to this war. I don¡®t think, though...
O¡®DONNELL: Does Terry Holt have any relatives in Iraq? I don¡®t think so.
HOLT: No, but I have members of my church, members of my community, people that I have met with. And Larry, come on...
O¡®DONNELL: And you would never dream of it yourself! You live your whole life...
HOLT: But Larry, look at the reality!
(CROSSTALK)
O¡®DONNELL: ... supporting this kind of war without ever¡ªone minute of your life has not been spent contemplating military service yourself, have you!
HOLT: But let me make a point to you, sir!
O¡®DONNELL: Tell the truth!
HOLT: Let me make a point to you...
O¡®DONNELL: You¡®re just like me, you wouldn¡®t dare enlist in the military...
HOLT: I¡®m sorry, I just am trying...
O¡®DONNELL: ... because you are as afraid of it as I am!
HOLT: ... to interrupt to make a point to you, and that is that people in Columbus, Ohio, and Indianapolis, Indiana, and Des Moines, Iowa, have friends and families that have suffered and sacrificed in this war.
O¡®DONNELL: And you don¡®t!
HOLT: And for you to suggest that a draft would make people hurt more, I think that¡®s unfair to the millions of military families around this country...
O¡®DONNELL: What Rangel is saying is a draft will connect the military...
HOLT: ... that have made a sacrifice.
O¡®DONNELL: ... to the wider American population, which is absolutely true.
CROWLEY: Joe, may I budge in for a minute? I think that maybe the key point is that political, and frankly, media leadership in this country. So it¡®s not that average Americans have no connection to the military or that tiny numbers of Americans do, but unfortunately, I think the people who make the decisions about war and peace in the corridors power and at the newspapers, to some extent, editorial boards¡ªthose people are all too disconnected from the culture of the military.
SCARBOROUGH: And Michael Crowley¡ªMichael Crowley, that¡®s a great point.
CROWLEY: And by the way, I am one of those...
SCARBOROUGH: The fact is...
CROWLEY: And that applies to me. I¡®m not trying to point the finger.
SCARBOROUGH: Right.
CROWLEY: And it paralyzes my thinking about these issues.
SCARBOROUGH: Well, sure. And it¡®s not that middle America is not connected to the loss that our men and women are suffering overseas. It is a fact that elites¡ªand because I¡®ve got a TV show, by my definition before I got into TV what an elite would be, I would be one of those. Elites in this country, people in the media, people in Congress, people in the executive branch, they are disconnected.
I remember hearing Doris Kearns Goodwin talking about her son deciding from Harvard to serve this country and talking about how she¡®d go to dinner parties, and people would like at her like her son was out of his mind. Of course, he wasn¡®t.
HOLT: Joe, does a draft make that happen?
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: And Lawrence¡ªlet me ask that question to you, Lawrence, because we know how the last draft went. I mean, the elites are still going to be able to keep their kids out of the draft.
O¡®DONNELL: Yes. Tell that to John Kerry and everybody else from his Yale class who enlisted. The draft put the pressure...
HOLT: Whatever!
O¡®DONNELL: ... on people to...
SCARBOROUGH: John Kerry...
O¡®DONNELL: ... face the decision...
SCARBOROUGH: John Kerry went in in 1965...
HOLT: The draft brought people in the middle...
(CROSSTALK)
HOLT: Hold on. Hold on. Hold on.
O¡®DONNELL: My brother went in and I have cousins going in...
HOLT: Go ahead. Go ahead. Talk.
O¡®DONNELL: ... who don¡®t want to go in, and they had to go in! So it did happen, and the draft did connect you. Everybody had a draft number, and they had this relationship to this war at the time...
HOLT: But does it make them a more effective fighting force?
(CROSSTALK)
O¡®DONNELL: Terry Holt gets to live completely apart from this war.
Not a single relative involved. Nobody he cares about does he have to worry about going to Iraq.
HOLT: Well, I wouldn¡®t attack you personally, Larry. I¡®m sorry.
(CROSSTALK)
HOLT: I¡®m just not going to go there with you.
SCARBOROUGH: That¡®s an awful personal¡ªthat¡®s an awful personal...
O¡®DONNELL: It is personal!
SCARBOROUGH: ... attack, isn¡®t it?
O¡®DONNELL: President Bush has two kids who belong in Iraq, and they¡®re not there! And if they had to...
HOLT: Oh, my goodness!
O¡®DONNELL: ... go there, he would make a different decision! It is a disgusting disconnect...
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Hold on a second! Lawrence...
O¡®DONNELL: ... from military service!
SCARBOROUGH: ... I don¡®t know why you think that people who don¡®t want to serve in the armed services should serve in the armed services...
(CROSSTALK)
O¡®DONNELL: People who are afraid of the armed services should not advocate war!
SCARBOROUGH: Lawrence...
O¡®DONNELL: If you¡®re afraid of being in the armed services...
SCARBOROUGH: Lawrence...
O¡®DONNELL: ... you cannot advocate war!
SCARBOROUGH: Lawrence, you are just so out of bounds tonight. Let me finish my sentence. We¡®ve got over a million people that serve in our military, that do it proudly, that are proud of what they¡®re doing, and as much as this may shock you and other people, they¡®re very proud of what they¡®re doing in Iraq. They¡®re proud of what they¡®re doing in Afghanistan. They¡®re proud of what they¡®re doing in the Balkans. Don¡®t tell them...
O¡®DONNELL: I¡®ve had family in Iraq...
SCARBOROUGH: ... that they¡®re the dregs of society!
O¡®DONNELL: ... myself, Joe. What I¡®m telling you is if someone is afraid to put on a military uniform and afraid of combat, they have no right to advocate war.
HOLT: Who¡®s talking about being afraid? We¡®re talking about...
O¡®DONNELL: You Terry! You¡®re afraid!
HOLT: ... a policy...
O¡®DONNELL: You didn¡®t do it!~
HOLT: Larry...
O¡®DONNELL: And you advocate war!
HOLT: We¡®re not talking about fear...
O¡®DONNELL: Just like President Bush!
HOLT: ... or no fear. We¡®re talking about...
O¡®DONNELL: He was afraid of combat, and he advocates war.
HOLT: Well...
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Hold on. Did you say that about Bill Clinton also?
O¡®DONNELL: Yes! Bill Clinton was a draft dodger, classic afraid, terrified draft dodger.
O¡®DONNELL: He
SCARBOROUGH: OK. And he sent our trips overseas...
O¡®DONNELL: That¡®s right.
SCARBOROUGH: ... and aren¡®t you glad that he sent them to Bosnia and Kosovo?
O¡®DONNELL: I¡®m not sure that I am glad that he sent them there.
SCARBOROUGH: Well, there were a hell of a lot of people that were being killed there...
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: It rather tends to limit the 2008 Democratic presidential field. I mean, Lawrence, I¡®m sympathetic to a lot of what you¡®re saying, but it makes it a little bit difficult for the Democratic Party to continue to exist...
O¡®DONNELL: Well, the Democrats will continue to be as hypocritical about it as the Republicans...
(CROSSTALK)
O¡®DONNELL: ... from war cowards loathsome!
SCARBOROUGH: All right, we¡®re going to have to leave it there.
Lawrence O¡®Donnell, you came to fight tonight. Michael Crowley, Terry, thanks for being with us.
HOLT: Thanks, Joe.
SCARBOROUGH: It¡®s an important debate you¡®re going to be hearing in the coming future, I¡®ll guarantee you that, if Charlie Rangel has his way.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15830521/
Fewer new members of Congress have military experience
By BOB DART
Cox News Service
Tuesday, November 21, 2006
WASHINGTON — As a key member of the new Democratic majority in the House calls for resuming the draft to spread the burden of the war across society, the incoming Congress itself illustrates a decline in the military experience once shared by Americans of all ilk.
Only about one in ten of the new members of Congress is a military veteran, half as many as the members they replaced, according to a survey by the Military Officers Association of America. In all, only about one in four members of the new Congress will have served in the military — down from one in two in 1991 and more than three of every four a decade earlier.
"The declining number of veterans in Congress is a reflection of the same trend among all Americans," says the organization of retired, reserve and active duty officers. "With smaller forces, the proportion that has served will continue to decline as time passes."
Pointing to the tiny slice of citizenry that has sacrificed as all-volunteer forces fight the Iraq war, Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., incoming chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, has called for a conscription to spread the burden throughout society and to discourage future military adventurism.
In Congress — as in society as a whole — views are shaped by military service.
Rep. Jim Marshall, D-Ga., said there is "no question" that his Army duty in Vietnam has helped him decide how to vote in the House of Representatives.
"I have a perspective as a veteran that I gained through experience that someone who hasn't served doesn't have," said Marshall, who won two Bronze Stars and a Purple Heart as a platoon sergeant. Leading a small combat team engaged in "what was basically counter-insurgency ... has given me a better feel for what our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan face."
But that doesn't mean colleagues who haven't had that experience can't make good decisions on military policy, he added. The incoming chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Rep. Ike Skelton, D-Mo., was disqualified from military service after suffering from polio as a child, said Marshall. But "Ike is extremely supportive of our military in a very thoughtful way. He is a good example of the kind of member who serves us every well on military matters and yet himself was unable to serve."
Rep. Lloyd Doggett, D-Texas, is among the large majority of members who did not serve in the military.
"Every individual brings a unique perspective. Prior service to our nation is one factor," said Doggett. "But I know that many of my colleagues, veterans and non-veterans, share my view that those who have worn our uniform must receive all the benefits they have earned."
Steve Robertson, legislative director of the American Legion, said "it obviously makes a difference" when a lawmaker has served in the military.
Veterans in Congress "understand the sacrifices and hardships experienced not just by members of our military but also by their families," said Robertson. "They don't have to think what it's like to be in combat or imagine what it's like to be deployed overseas because they've been there."
Sen. Lindsey Graham, a South Carolina Republican who is a colonel in the U.S. Air Force Standby Reserve, told the Associated Press he agreed that the U.S. does not have enough people in the military.
"I think we can do this with an all-voluntary service, all-voluntary Army, Air Force, Marine Corps and Navy. And if we can't, then we'll look for some other option," said Graham, who is assigned as a reserve judge to the Air Force Court of Criminal Appeals.
Rangel believes the sacrifices and hardships in the Iraq war have been borne by too few Americans, with the same volunteer troops returning for tour after tour while most people escape any danger. A draft would spread the woes and provide personal ramifications for warmakers.
"There's no question in my mind that this president and this administration would never have invaded Iraq, especially on the flimsy evidence that was presented to the Congress, if indeed we had a draft and members of Congress and the administration thought that their kids from their communities would be placed in harm's way," Rangel said on the CBS News program "Face the Nation."
When the Democrats take over Congress in January, Rangel said he will introduce legislation to reinstate a draft for all young Americans. The Korean War veteran has proposed similar measures in the past that failed amid overwhelming bipartisan opposition.
Speaker-elect Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said Monday that she opposes reinstatement of the draft.
"It's not about a draft. It's about shared sacrifice in our country," Pelosi told reporters in her Capitol Hill office. She said Rangel was making a point "that this war has not involved or made any shared sacrifice."
The declining number of lawmakers with military experience "presents an educational challenge" to advocates for veterans, active-duty troops and their families, said Steve Strobridge, director of government relations for the Military Officers Association of America.
"It's not that members who aren't veterans don't support us on military issues. Sometimes they bend over backwards because they didn't serve," he said. "But we need to work a little harder to explain the issues" to those who don't have first-hand knowledge of the military.
"Once they understand, they can be at least as supportive as those who have served," he said.
The trend reflects the dying of the World War II generation — where virtually all the men served — and the growing years since the end of the Vietnam War and the nation's last military draft. The number of veterans in the House peaked in 1977-78 when about 80 percent of the members had military experience, said Strobridge. The peak in the Senate was in 1983-84 when 75 percent of the senators were veterans.
There has been a decline ever since.
In 1973, the draft ended and the nation converted to all-volunteer military forces. In a population of about 300 million people, there are only about 24 million veterans now, said Robertson, the legislative director of the largest veterans' organization. That's fewer than one in ten Americans.
By those percentages and not historical ones, he said, veterans are still well represented in Congress. With the exception of Bill Clinton, every president since Franklin Delano Roosevelt has been a veteran, he noted.
Robertson, the American Legion lobbyist, said that even though veterans in Congress can draw upon their experiences, many understand that the military forces have changed dramatically since they served. During the Vietnam War, for instance, most soldiers were single and serving one hitch. With the all-volunteer force, many more are married and staying in the military for longer tours.
But Robertson said that being a veteran doesn't necessarily mean a candidate rates American Legion support.
Rep. Chet Edwards, D-Texas, was a non-veteran running against an Iraq War veteran but their respective service or lack thereof was never an issue, he said. "That's because Chet Edwards has been such a staunch supporter for veterans."
In their effort to educate non-veteran members, Strobridge said 130 retired military officers will visit congressional offices as the new Congress opens. One issue is that "we don't have a big enough force," he said.
"We're asking the same people to go again and again and again" to Iraq and Afghanistan, he said. "Whether you like the current war or not, you always have to be ready to fight the next one."
Data box:
1991 1995 1999 2003 2005 2007
Senate 68% 56% 43% 35% 31% 29%
House 48% 37% 31% 27% 25% 23%
This year's difference is highlighted by comparing those who left Congress by retirement or defeat vs. the freshmen legislators who replaced them:
Departees New Freshmen
Senate 20% 10%
House 25% 11%
The declining number of veterans in Congress is a reflection of the same trend among all Americans. With smaller forces, the proportion that has served will continue to decline as time passes.
Source: Military Officers Association of America
Bob Dart is a Washington correspondent for Cox Nedwspapers.
http://www.pulsejournal.com/search/content/shared/news/stories/2006/11/CONGRESS_DRAFT21_COX_W9723.html
Wow I wish I has seen it, thanks for posting that...pandora
O¡®DONNELL: What Rangel is saying is a draft will connect the military... ... to the wider American population, which is absolutely true.
Is he out of his mind? Or does he want the country to turn against the military?
He has "family" that enlisted and he's talking like that?
Disgraceful.