Jonestown tragedy had liberal roots

http://mensnewsdaily.com/2006/11/16/jonestown-tragedy-had-liberal-roots/ ^

[zippy the razor]

Jones is sometimes described as a religious fanatic, as a man who used faith to do monstrous things. The truth is his faith wasn’t, as many presume, in Christianity. He believed in Marx more than in Christ.

Jones baptized people “in the holy name of socialism” and called himself the Socialist Worker God.

[fortunecookie]

It is news to me. I was in school when the tragedy occurred. I knew he ran a cult but had heard it was based on Christianity and his twisting of it. I haven't read 'Raven', what I have read and thought I knew is freaky as it is.

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

Jones baptized people “in the holy name of socialism”

"Holy?" Hardly. You can divide people into two groups: those who attempt to do things and those who aspire to authority based only on their ability to criticize those who do. Socialists are hypercritical second guessers of the doers.

But socialists also are noteworthy for their proclivity to appropriate for themselves any expression which elates to people collectively, as opposed to government. Examples are "the people," "the masses," "public" - and, of course, the word "society" itself. The most obvious example is the conflation of "public" with "government. Thus, "the public sector" is a circumlocution for "government." "Public" schools are government schools, and so on.

But if "public" is the most obvious example, "society" is IMHO the most blatant. If a leftist says, "Society should" (do some particular thing) he means nothing other than that the government should do that thing. It will not matter how much the aggregation of all the individual people who make up society voluntarily spend on, for example, giving children lunch. If a socialists says that "Society should feed lunch to its children," he means the government should do it and "society" - the government - is not doing so.

That relates directly to the "holy" name of "socialism." What could be clearer than that what leftists call "socialism" is nothing other than governmentism? At its base level "socialism" is a lie. The socialist conflates "society" with "government" so thoroughly as to blind himself to the possibility of making a distinction between the two. So for any socialist who may see this, I will draw the distinction for you:

Society minus government equals freedom.

Where there is no difference in fact between society and government, there is no freedom.

[fish hawk]

Just think, without Jamestown, we would not have the phrase, "don't drink the kool aid"

[Mike Bates]

Thanks for posting this.

[domenad]

"Raven" was a biography of Jones, really in depth and detailed. And spooky as hell.

[dmz]

I doubt we'll find much to agree on on this topic. They were both religious cults, with sick and twisted bast$%ds at the helm. Both thought more of their own power and messianic complexes than the people they sucked in.

Jim Jones was responsible for the deaths in Guyana.
David Koresh was responsible for the deaths in Waco (think suicide by cop).

The law enforcement in waco screwed up horribly, but in no way shape or form does that come close to exonerating Koresh for what happened there.

And btw, 900 people died in Guyana, but there were a lot of murders in addition to the suicides.

[2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten]

I rememeber pictures of him and Rosalyn Carter.

---

Saw a show on John Wayne Gacy last night. He was a democrat precinct captain in the Chicago area and there was a picture of him with Rosalyn Carter they showed.

Cute.

[brazzaville]

Good afternoon.
Clearly we aren't going to agree on anything on this.

"David Koresh was responsible for the deaths in Waco (think suicide by cop)."

I know what suicide by cop is. I had a close friend from the Army commit suicide by cop by holding up a liquor store and drawing on the cops when they responded. He had too much of Vietnam still in his mind.

There's a big difference between that and opening your door to be shot at by cattle cars full of ATF thugs ostensibly serving a warrant on someone who routinely left the building to go running or to go to town, and who the raiders knew was aware that they were coming, being besieged by an army for 51 days, and ultimately being killed.

Believe what you want. You are wrong on this and I doubt that you are open to changing your mind.

I know all about the attack on the delegation that had flown down to talk to Jones. I've known a man for years who, with his wife, was also targeted by Jones' assassins but survived. Their child was one of the 900 dead in Jonestown. As I said, the only similarity is that Jones' victims and the Davidians both thought of themselves as church people.

Michael Frazier

[fortunecookie]

"Raven" was a biography of Jones, really in depth and detailed. And spooky as hell.

Oh, my, I remember the stories then in magazines, wasn't there a made for TV movie? Well, those stories were creepy enough. He really was quite insane, a nutjob. And his ties to socialism, well, it does fill in certain gaps I had about how he managed to 'convince' so many to drink the grape drink. (Yeah, I remember the 'runners', those trying to flee, were shot.)

[Mike Bates]

Saw a show on John Wayne Gacy last night. He was a democrat precinct captain in the Chicago area and there was a picture of him with Rosalyn Carter they showed.

Cute.

Michael M. Bates: My Side of the Swamp

[ladyinred]

Looks like the Carter's knew the nicest people.

[Mike Bates]

And "the Velvet Glove" would cozy up to them as long as they could produce 'Rat votes.

[2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten]

That's it - hard to tell which one look scarier in that picture - I think it's a toss up.

[andysandmikesmom]

Brazzaville..are you from Redwood Valley?....my aunt lived in Redwood Valley, up Rd B, just up the hill from the Jim Jones church in Redwood Valley...we visited her in 1977, and at that time she warned us about Jones, and that really weird church, as she called it at the time...she said, she believed something awful was going to happen with that church someday...

My own parents moved out to Redwood Valley in 1983, and loved that whole area...of course, this was long after Jones had left, but people there still remember him...

I did not realize that they had closed Jones old church...the last time I was in Redwood Valley was in 1990, when I brought my mom up to live with me, in Wasington State...I think the old church bldg was still open and being used at the time, tho I am not sure what it was being used for...

I always like Redwood Valley, and since my parents have both died, and my aunt has relocated, I have not been back there in over 15yrs...but my time there was always wonderful, tho it gets to be so unbearably hot for me, as I am used to the temperate climes of western Washington State...

[zot]

Thanks for the ping. Yes, Jim Jones was a full-fledged Communist. Another step in setting the record straight.

[brazzaville]

Good evening.
"Brazzaville..are you from Redwood Valley?"

Actually, I live up off of Rd B myself, near the 3300 part and off the road a ways. My wife's family has been here in the county since the 1850's. I like it as much as I have any of the many places I've lived.

The county didn't close the church, just ceased to use it as a polling place. I'm sorry, I don't remember what church uses the location now. I always liked voting in the church, though I was always keenly aware of it's history. Jones and the People's Temple had done a lot of damage and left a lot of scars there.

My wife worked in the DA's office at the time and she too felt that a tragedy was in the making. She said that Jones made her skin crawl, something I've heard from many people who knew him.

I arrived here in 1987, long after after the sadness at Jonestown but the presence of the People's Temple is still felt.

It does get hot here, doesn't it. I hate being cold so I love it as much as my friends on the coast hate it.

You and my wife were neighbors. Interesting drift on a thread about an evil socialist, eh.

Later,

Michael Frazier

[andysandmikesmom]

I dont know the addresses and how they run, on road B, as I only visited my aunt there the one time I visited her, while she lived off of road B...but she did live all the way up on the top...one of her sons lived further down on Road B...

My parents lived on Ellen Lynn...the second Ellen Lynn..

And of even more interest, is that your last name, and my maiden name are the same, and spelled exactly the same...

Yes it is an interesting drift, on a thread about such an evil man...

[dmz]

I doubt that you are open to changing your mind.
____________

And what leads you to this conclusion?

[stratman1969]

There is a bunch of revisionist history going on with this tragedy. A film has just been made, along with a play last year, that's trying to say "well there were some good things about Peoples Temple." Typical rationalization of socialism. Also, the director of this movie has an obvious left-leaning slant and is using the film to take veiled swipes at our government and how it's fighting the War on Terror. They came just recently to my area for a screening. There's a lot of unsavory things these filmmakers don't want to reveal, about corruption among S.F. clergy, politicians and the media who were all complicit in Jones rise to infamy.

http://maroonedinmarin.blogspot.com/2006/11/jonestown-filmmakers-ignore-sf-media.html

[brazzaville]

Good morning.

There were some good things accomplished by the People's Temple.

There were people saved from the wreckage of the inner city and others who found some meaning in their empty lives.

The problem is that Jones was a Socialist madman and those people either woke up and fled the Temple or died in Guyana.

Michael Frazier