WashTimes: China sub secretly stalked U.S. fleet (surprisingly within firing range)

Washington Times ^ | Washington Times

[quesney]

By Bill Gertz THE WASHINGTON TIMES November 13, 2006

The USS Kitty Hawk aircraft carrier The USS Kitty Hawk aircraft carrier (AFP/Getty Images)

A Chinese submarine stalked a U.S. aircraft carrier battle group in the Pacific last month and surfaced within firing range of its torpedoes and missiles before being detected, The Washington Times has learned.

The surprise encounter highlights China's continuing efforts to prepare for a future conflict with the U.S., despite Pentagon efforts to try to boost relations with Beijing's communist-ruled military.

The submarine encounter with the USS Kitty Hawk and its accompanying warships also is an embarrassment to the commander of U.S. forces in the Pacific, Adm. William J. Fallon, who is engaged in an ambitious military exchange program with China aimed at improving relations between the two nations' militaries.

Disclosure of the incident comes as Adm. Gary Roughead, commander of the U.S. Navy's Pacific Fleet, is making his first visit to China.

[...]

[thinking]

I always get a chuckle out these "news releases"....imagine all the intelligence that was gathered on this type of sub...and on the other hand, imagine all the intelligence denied this sub....

[verity]

Hey, Jeff.

IMHO, the circumstances are completely different.

If for no other reason, China -unlike Japan - recognizes that our retaliatory capability is much more sophisticated than it was in 1941. They well know that just one US 'boomer' could virtually destroy their civilization.

Because their culture adapts very well to long term goals and their system is not held hostage by a flaky electorate, it is in their best interest to inflict death by a thousand cuts.

Your thoughts?

[raygun]

Personal experience in various Sub Command simulations has proven to me that the Kilo can be a quite formidable threat in litoral waters. I had a very hard time detecting Iranian Kilo's in the Straights of Hormuz. In a couple exercises we collided. I guess those AIR boats are something to recon with (as is any boat running on electric). FYI: Sub Command was put out by Sonalysts, and Sonalysts are the people who make sub-sims for the U.S.N. Sub Command is about as authentic of a submarine experience a civilian is going to get. There's an entry in the Congressional Register with respect to Sonalyst's U.S.N. simulations programs.

NTI: Submarine proliferation - Sweden - current capabilities

Concerned that the threat from nuclear weapons had fallen off most people's radar screens after the end of the Cold War, CNN founder Ted Turner asked former U.S. Senator Sam Nunn in the spring of 2000 to help assess whether a private organization could make a difference. After months of discussions and consultations with some of the world's most respected security experts, Mr. Turner and Senator Nunn founded the Nuclear Threat Initiative (NTI) in January 2001. Initially supported by a pledge from Mr. Turner and other private contributions, NTI is now classified as a 501 (c) 3 public charity.

NTI's mission is to strengthen global security by reducing the risk of use and preventing the spread of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. NTI seeks to raise public awareness, serve as a catalyst for new thinking and take direct action to reduce these threats. In addition to Mr. Turner and Senator Nunn, NTI is guided by an experienced, international Board of Directors who share a common goal of taking action to reduce the gap between the global threats and the global response. The foundation's activities are directed by Senator Nunn and managed by President Charles B. Curtis.

In May 2005, the Gotland was leased to the U.S. Navy for one year, complete with a Swedish crew. The Gotland will initially be based in San Diego, where the U.S. Navy will practice joint maneuvers with the stealthy AIP-equipped diesel submarine.¹ According to the Swedish newspaper Blekinge Läns Tidning, U.S. interest in the Gotland class was aroused during joint naval exercises when the U.S. Navy was unable to track the Swedish submarine²

During its first year in the United States, the Gotland is scheduled to conduct up to 160 training days at sea, supporting strike groups, individual ships and rescue submarines, as well as participate in testing and development of new equipment.³ The Gotland regularly uses its diesel engines only when entering or exiting port, going on two-week-plus "silent" patrols using its Stirling AIP engines exclusively.⁴ As of March 2006, the U.S. Navy was reportedly in talks with Sweden on extending the lease for one to two more years.^4,6 Reportedly, during a Joint Task Force Exercise on December 6-16, 2005, with the USS Ronald Reagan Carrier Strike Group off the coast of Southern California, the Gotland managed to take several pictures of the Ronald Reagan from close quarters, indicating a "strike" on the aircraft carrier.⁵ As Gotland's Lieutenant Commander Jan Westas says, the U.S. ASW forces "have had a very difficult time finding us." To date, the exercises have been carried out in deep water. It is expected that exercises with the Gotland in coastal waters will prove even more challenging to U.S. ASW.⁴

Notes:
[1] "RSwN submarine HMS Gotland on lease to US Navy for twelve months," May 31, 2005, Kockums Website, http://www.kockums.se.
[2] "USA to lease Gotland-class sub," November 5, 2004, Kockums Website, http://www.kockums.se.
[3] "Swedish Submarine Continues to Play Important Role in Joint Training," December 20, 2005, Navy Newsstand Website, http://www.news.navy.mil.
[4]Norman Polmar, "Back to the Future," United States Naval Institute Proceedings (Annapolis: March 2006), pp. 20-26; in ProQuest Information and Learning Company, http://proquest.umi.com.
[5] "Svensk Ubåt 'sänkte' USA:s hangarfartyg," Allehanda, January 16, 2006, http://www.allehanda.se/lokalt/7956".
[6] "USA vill fortsätta jaga svensk ubåt," Svenska Dagbladet, April 18, 2006, http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/inrikes/did_12393415.asp.

[Tribune7]

thank you.

[raygun]

Sorry, Congressional Register was the wrong venue. The Chariman of the Board of Sonalysts spoke before the House Armed Services Sub-Committee concerning military R&D.

REPARED STATEMENT
LAWRENCE F. CLARK
CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD
SONALYSTS, INC.

BEFORE THE
HOUSE ARMED SERVICES SUBCOMMITTEE ON
MILITARY RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT
UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

MARCH 12, 2002

In the remarks before HASS, Clark talks about developing 688(I) Hunter Killer (introduced in 1997 and it has been the best selling submarine game yet; to date there have been more than 400,000 copies sold. It was named the "Best Combat Simulation of the Year" for 1997 by PC Gamer magazine, and it was named the "World's Most Intellectually Challenging Game" by The Guinness Book of Records in 1999 and 2000.), Fleet Command, Sub Command (a sequel to the first game. It outsold both of the first two for the same time period. It was shown to the Commodore responsible for Submarine Force-wide tactical development to demonstrate two specific potential training capabilities -- high density contact management training (which could be done right out of the box) and submarine fire control party team training (which would require a small additional development cost). These are both very important training issues, and both are hard to address if the only opportunities are "on the job." The Commodore immediately understood the potential value of the concepts contined in the game, and Sonalysts believes that the Submarine Force is likely to pursue them. There also are several other potential training enhancements to that game on the drawing boards).

[Paul Ross]

Nope. The "vaporization" has to be approved by the new overlords in town. Whom W is busy kissing butt daily with. And their life-support comes from the Chi-Comms.

[Paul Ross]

And we are decommissioning our S-3's

And have already decommissioned just last month our F-14s. No real replacements. And no "help on the way." And now the RATs have the budgetary control. Things will get even worse from here on out. All because some smug idiots assumed we could always fix things "later."

"Later" has a tendancy to come more than a bit too late. You don't use "just in time" business production theory on national defense. You get those capabilities deployes ASAP. Because for one thing...the enemy is not standing still. And they are observing and testing the growing holes and gaps in our security.

[Paul Ross]

How do you prosecute?

Well you don't, since the White House is complicit.

[melancholy]

Wait until they build the Dance class.

[raygun]

Bingo!

No self-serving submarine skipper is coming to the surface in the middle of a superpower task force unless they have to.

Because all it would take would be at the next high-level Sino-American meetings that the Chinese officials get real ornery on us for three or four days, and then drop a manila folder containing some pictures they shot of a CVN from 4nm. Nobody would be none the wiser.

Same if we took 'em out beneath the high-seas in international waters. We'd be just as belligerent, and state quite vociferously that we had no idea what happened to their submarine (you should keep better track of those things).

[Paul Ross]

If its true that this sub stalked the carrier group without us knowing; should be cause for immediate removal of the fleet admiral, the carrier group commander as well as the carrier's commander ASAP.

The problem is likely not the personnel deployed. Its the lack of capabilities they have been left with as we continue pell-mell unilateral disarmament...decommissioning subs and planes and ships right and left.

We have explicitly continued Xlinton's Defense Holiday. Funding for Iraq operations ...does nothing to address the imploding U.S. navy situation.

And so who do you need to look at to address that issue? Frankly, the rot is a lot higher paygrade than you have mentioned so far. A lot higher.

And their problem is that they don't take to heart President Thomas Jefferson's observation:

We confide in our strength, without boasting of it; we respect that of others without fearing it.
Thomas Jefferfson, 1793

Sorry to say, a whole slew of people in politics, academia, the media, and even the military have fallen prey to failing to respect adversaries...and it is simply insane. It is also UNAMERICAN. A true American practices Eternal Vigilence to safeguard our liberty.

[Paul Ross]

Thanks, "E" for excellence in posting!

[Jeff Head]

Many in the Japanese leadership, including their top Naval Admiral who planned the Pearl Harbor attacks, knew full well what the outcome would be...they knew they would have six months to run wild in the Pacific before US production came into play and completely overwhelmed them...yet they went ahead with the attack anyway, wholly misjudging the will and underlying metal of the American people.

I believe that circumstance is, in essence the same today. Many believe we are soft, with no staying power, and that we will give up after a relatively short bleeding. In the context of world wide conflict where the American people truly become aware of the stakes...they are underestimating us again.

The Chinese will not play to our nuclear strength...if that happens at all it will be through 3rd party surrogates like the terrorists or N. Koprea...though I doubt they will risk N. Korea either...it is too close to them (both physically and in every other way). They are using N. Korea to test our resolve and to gauge our responses and monitoring those responses.

Anyhow, I believe they will continue to manipulate us economically, and that they will continue to forge their own alliances all around the world (as they are doing) until they reach a point of self sufficency and a point where they believe it is time to move overtly. I believe that will only come after they continue to bleed us and then get us involved in a major way in at least two other theaters first. I also believe that with a democratic leadership in power, in congress and the White House, that it could happen in the next ten years. They are building up militarily for that ultimate confrontation now as we speak...but they are not there yet.

[cva66snipe]

And have already decommissioned just last month our F-14s. No real replacements. And no "help on the way." And now the RATs have the budgetary control. Things will get even worse from here on out. All because some smug idiots assumed we could always fix things "later." "Later" has a tendancy to come more than a bit too late. You don't use "just in time" business production theory on national defense. You get those capabilities deployes ASAP. Because for one thing...the enemy is not standing still. And they are observing and testing the growing holes and gaps in our security.

The military went through a large stand down and down size between WW1 & WW2 and was able to catch up. This extended the war likely by 2 years doing so. It also showed us as being weak and a temptation to be tested by the German and Japanese dictators.

We caught up because we had massive manufacturing capabilities including the abilities to produce massive amounts of steel. Thanks to the Republicans so called Free Trader mentality who have out sourced every thing but the dog catcher and burger flippers we no longer have that capability in our defense infrastructure.

Republicans can curse the DEMs all they wish and rightfully so as they have done their damage. But they better start looking long and hard in the mirror at their own parties betrayers to this nations well being especially in national defense. That betrayal begins in the Rockefeller Republican wing of the GOP {now the minority but controlling faction of the GOP} and extends into black-mailable congressmen and ones taking huge corporate campaign donations {bribes} from the out sourcers as well as ignoring the threat of China in the name of Free Trade.

That kind of trade is not Free nor is it AMERICAN. It's selling out the United States of America. They can take that pig {Free Trade Agreements}, give it a bath, and spray it with cologne, put a ribbon in it's ear, and call it a Poodle but it is still a pig and it still stinks all the same. So do the politicans who support it.

[Paul Ross]

Also, it seems to me that if China is hell-bent on economic expansion and modernization,

And just why do you suppose they are doing that? You may be failing to recognize its true purpose. The Chinese have been careful students of history and have taken to heart that it was our deep industrial base that saved us in WW-II...

starting a war with the US would be counterproductive.

Uh, they aren't openly starting one. Yet.

They will stay covert for a while, see Unrestricted Warfare:

They are merely gearing up. So they have demonstrated to themselves, and their regional allies, the ability to catch us off guard napping. Ripe for the next, and much bigger, Pearl Harbor style attack. So that these allies will be emboldened to go along, and help "pile-on" with China and Russia.

Meanwhile, we are pursuing policies which only encourage these strategies of the Chi-Comms. We are dismantling our nuclear forces pell-mell. Our MX is gone. Our B-1Bs are cut in half and conventional-only now. Our B-2s were stopped in mid-production at only 22...far less than needed. A third of our Tridents were converted to conventional-only. All our tactical nukes (except a small number in NATO) are already long gone. Operation Looking Glass in mothballs. Cheyenne Mountain is going into mothballs. And our ASW is a shadow of its self. And our Air Defense is also declining rapidly due to failures to deploy either PAC-3s, fighters or restore air bases.

Virtually Nothing is being budgeted to fix the continuing Defense Holiday. Everything is being thrown into counter terrorism. Complete Squandry.

Meanwhile, this is the real thinking of the Chi-Comms behind, and underpinning everything, in the words of Chi Haotian, former Chinese Defense Minister:

"'It is indeed brutal to kill one or two hundred million Americans. But that is the only path that will secure a Chinese century, a century in which the CCP leads the world.'" :

[dcrider182]

I met a gentelman who was in the battle of Midway.. Great man.. will do. thanks!

[Non-Sequitur]

And no "help on the way." And now the RATs have the budgetary control.

Really wouldn't have made any difference. Iraq is sucking up all the available funds and everything else in every service is suffering from a lack of funding. The GOP wasn't about to do anything about it either.

[verity]

My understanding is that Pearl Harbor was a military failure because the decapitation was not complete, i.e. the carriers were not destroyed. Eventually naval air proved devastating to the Japanese fleet.

We agree that our nuclear deterrent is still effective.

The last paragraph in your post does not run counter to my premise and thus we essentially agree. But it raises this question: Why should they risk a devastating nuclear counterstrike by attempting a preemptive military strike when they do not have to fire a shot?

[verity]

Hey, Paul:

Let me pose the same question to you that I posed to Jeff, i.e. Why should they risk a devastating nuclear counterstrike by attempting a preemptive military strike when they do not have to fire a shot?

[BurbankKarl]

One Sunburn missile can ruin your whole day...