Posted on 10/17/2006 6:10:35 AM PDT by NYer
Whilst searching for the origin of the star and crescent symbol, found this:
SUMERIANS ARE NOT INDIGENEOUS PEOPLE TO MESOPOTAMIA
It is well acknowledged that the Sumerians are not indigeneous people to Mesopotamia. In view of the existing close kinship of Sumerian and the Ural-Altaic languages and additionally many cultural evidences showing direct kinship betwen the Sumerians and the Central Asiatic peoples, it can be said that in order for this affinity to exists, the ancestors of the present day Altaic peoples (such as Turks and Hungarians) and those of the Sumerians must have been in direct contact with each other before Sumerians migrated into Mesopotamia. In other words, the Sumerians must have been a Central Asiatic people and must have been speaking the same or a dialect of a proto-Ural-Altaic language that Ural-Altaic peoples spoke then. That proto-Ural-Altaic language must have been either the same as the Sumerian or a version of the Sumerian language that the linguists have been able to read from thousands of Sumerian tablets. The very fact that the present day Turkish and Hungarian are Sumerian-like languages, is a strong indication that the speakers of these languages are the descendants of an Ural-Altaic people who must have been members of a group that the Sumerians were also a member.
http://www.compmore.net/~tntr/crescent_starb.html
I've read that's what the story of Cain & Abel was about.
Yup. I think the Bible speaks of 'wise men from the east.'
Also, the Gilgamesh account of 'The Flood' is substancially older than the Bibical account. And, there is at least one that is older than Gilgamesh.
Voyages Of The Pyramid Builders
"The great pyramids of Egypt provide a wonderful glimpse of the artistry, skill and imagination of the ancient world. But pyramids can be found in India, China, Peru, Bolivia, Mexico and Ireland. In this provocative book, geologist Schoch (noted for his work in redating the Sphinx, which was recounted in his Voices of the Rocks) wonders how so many diverse cultures built such similar structures with similar purposes. Using geological, linguistic and geographical evidence, he contends that a protocivilization of pyramid-building peoples was driven out of its homeland, the Sundaland, which geologists believe connected Southeast Asia with Indonesia, by a rise in sea level caused by comet activity between 6000 and 4000 B.C. Fleeing their homeland, these peoples took their knowledge of pyramid building with them into Sumeria, Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and Peru. Schoch hypothesizes that the pyramids were built to reach into the skies and to penetrate the mystery of the heavens, source of catastrophe. Schoch also asserts that the pyramids point to unity and symbolize the deep concerns shared by all humans. Schoch builds his engrossing case on geological details of the pyramid sites he has examined around the world. In the end, however, even he admits his evidence of a Sundaland protocivilization is speculative. As controversial as this book is bound to be, Schoch's evocation of the pyramids forcefully reminds us of their enduring power as monuments to the spirit of human creativity."
The 'baskets' at the top of the illustration remind me of similar, hand-held objects:
Winged Eagle-Headed Being (Genie); Neo-Assyrian period, reign of Ashurnasirpal II (r. 883859 B.C.), Mesopotamia; excavated at Nimrud (ancient Kalhu), Alabaster (gypsum)
Also Oannes:
The Story of Oannes
"At first they led a somewhat wretched existence and lived without rule after the manner of beasts. But, in the first year appeared an animal endowed with human reason, named Oannes, who rose from out of the Erythian Sea, at the point where it borders Babylonia. He had the whole body of a fish, but above his fish's head he had another head which was that of a man, and human feet emerged from beneath his fish's tail. He had a human voice, and an image of him is preserved unto this day. He passed the day in the midst of men without taking food; he taught them the use of letters, sciences and arts of all kinds. He taught them to construct cities, to found temples, to compile laws, and explained to them the principles of geometrical knowledge. He made them distinguish the seeds of the earth, and showed them how to collect the fruits; in short he instructed them in everything which could tend to soften human manners and humanize their laws. From that time nothing material has been added by way of improvement to his instructions. And when the sun set, this being Oannes, retired again into the sea, for he was amphibious. After this there appeared other animals like Oannes."
An account rendered by Berossus, a Babylonian priest of the 13th century B.C.
The Oannes legend suggests this culture, with its knowledge of agriculture and possibly cross-pollination, ultimately founded the establishment of an agricultural society in Mesopotamia, an area that was geographically altered in more recent times by rising sea levels. (see map # 100)
From the article:
"Klaus Schmidt (left) explains: "Gobekli Tepe is staggeringly old. It dates from 10,000BC, before pottery and the wheel. By comparison, Stonehenge dates from 2,000BC. Our excavations also show it is not a domestic site, it is religious - the world's oldest temple. This site proves that hunter-gatherers were capable of complex art and organised religion, something no-one imagined before."
I object to the use of the term 'hunter-gatherers' in this context...however, the date, 10,000BC makes sense (to me)
Remember, Amasis telling Solon on his visit to Egypt their written history went back 9,000 years? I believe we do the ancients a great insult by reducing the period we know as 'antiquity'.
Now, as for the little 'handbags' you might enjoy this:
Mythic Olmec figure with Jaguar mask on Quetzalcoatle, sculpture from the ancient Olmec site of La Venta (Mexico). Olmecs are considered to be the oldest Meso American Culture.
We don't know the half of it!
I agree 100%.
And now, that you've mentioned Solon:
We don't know the half of it!
Tell me!
This statue was found in the Olmec Ruins at La Venta too.
My vote is that the birds are Flamingos - check out the beak. At the top of the stone - Flamingos with their heads under their wings. And see the little Flamingos above them? Yup, gotta be Flamingos...
The only thing is, the Hebrew language of Genesis is narrative prose...not that of a parable or a poem. The rest of scripture too, Old Testament and New, treat the Genesis stories as literal history, not a parable of the "evolution of the intellect."
Modern Americans have summer lodges for vacation and some have hunting cabins in other states; we don't need to reside in them or even near them year round. So why would you expect ancient cultures to have spent most of their time with any structure they built?
SUMERIANS ARE NOT INDIGENEOUS PEOPLE TO MESOPOTAMIALast I knew, Sumerian language is an isolate, a language with no known related languages, living or dead, in use or in script. It is only "related" to Turkish because both are agglutinative (as was Elamite, and whatever language the Indus Valley script conceals; also Dravidian, as well as Korean and other Asian languages).
It is well acknowledged that the Sumerians are not indigeneous people to Mesopotamia. In view of the existing close kinship of Sumerian and the Ural-Altaic languages and additionally many cultural evidences showing direct kinship betwen the Sumerians and the Central Asiatic peoples, it can be said that in order for this affinity to exists, the ancestors of the present day Altaic peoples (such as Turks and Hungarians) and those of the Sumerians must have been in direct contact with each other before Sumerians migrated into Mesopotamia. In other words, the Sumerians must have been a Central Asiatic people and must have been speaking the same or a dialect of a proto-Ural-Altaic language that Ural-Altaic peoples spoke then. That proto-Ural-Altaic language must have been either the same as the Sumerian or a version of the Sumerian language that the linguists have been able to read from thousands of Sumerian tablets. The very fact that the present day Turkish and Hungarian are Sumerian-like languages, is a strong indication that the speakers of these languages are the descendants of an Ural-Altaic people who must have been members of a group that the Sumerians were also a member.
I think it's good to get a well-rounded view of scripture and judge for yourself. I just hear people repeating something over and over again and I get skeptical quickly...
But yes, in God all things are possible. And I am certain He knows were Eden is, so that's what really matters! :) I'll be sure to ask him whenever I make it up there. :)
Thanks for the ping. The findings are interesting, and the speculations are amusing. If the story of Eden is a racial memory, it is a memory of a long-ago time when there was plenty of food and not many people.
Hunting and gathering is a sustainable lifestyle only for a relatively small population in relatively a large area. A rich area may be a paradise for awhile, but population increase will eventually exhaust the local food supply.
It was only when people domesticated crops and cattle that population density could increase significantly, and they had enough food to feed the people who built temples.
The human race is still a race between food production and reproduction. For example, 1850's food production technology would feed only a small fraction of the 300 million people now in this country.
Here we go again, more research. Thanks.
"The farmer more than I, the farmer more than I, The farmer what has he more than I?
If he gives me his black garment, I give him, the farmer, my black ewe,
If be gives me his white garment, I give him, the farmer, my white ewe,
If he pours me his first date-wine, I pour him, the farmer, my yellow milk,
If he pours me his good date-wine, I pour him, the farmer, my kisim-milk
If he pours me his 'heart-turning' date-wine, I pour him, the farmer, my bubbling milk,
If he pours me his water-mixed date-wine, I pour him, the farmer, my plant-milk,
If he gives me his good portions, I give him, the farmer, my nitirda-milk,
If he gives me his good bread, I give him, the farmer, my honey-cheese,
If he gives me his small beans, I give him my small cheeses;
More than he can eat, more than he can drink,
I pour out for him much oil, I pour out for him much milk;
More than I, the farmer, what has be more than I?"
http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/sum/sum09.htm
And I've pretty much decided the mammal is a female lion (associated with a female deity later called Ishtar in that region.
Check this rhyton from KulTepe Note the feet and note the shape of the head.
Abel sacrificed the first and choicest of his lambs to God, Cain while he sacrificed of the fields did not do so whole heartedly and thus had his sacrifice rejected by God.
Abel had his sacrifice "blessed" of God while Cain received no blessing. Cain was upset by this and God reproved him also warning him of "the sin that was at the door" as he had begun thinking dark thoughts towards his brother. Thus Cain committed the first recorded murder against his brother Cain. The sacrifice of the lambs presages the sacrifice of the true LAMB OF GOD, as God was indicating that only the shed blood of innocence can redeem the guilty of sin.
I don't see how this story relates to a switch to agriculture. Tending a known flock in a known range with domesticated sheep is animal husbandry and could be considered a part of agriculture. It depends on how one ultimately defines "nomadic" I suppose!
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