Posted on 10/14/2006 12:50:28 AM PDT by CarrotAndStick
In the first ever exercises between India and the UK in 43 years, British pilots are doing just that, flying the Indian Air Force's Sukhoi 30s.
They are being candid enough in admitting that their own jets are being outgunned by the IAF's best.
A Royal Air Force (RAF) AWACS plane over Gwalior is a part of Exercise Indra Dhanush. For the RAF, which fielded some of their senior most pilots it was an opportunity to train with the IAF's Sukhoi 30.
India has never been a world-beater in the field of aviation but with the Sukhoi 30, the Indian Air Force has a real top gun.
Royal Air Force pilots who flew the jet were candid enough to admit that they came back with silly grins after flying a sortie on the fighter.
"This is a third straight or 4th generation fighter behind me absolutely wonderful piece of kit. I would love to fly that (pointing to Tornado). It is a magnificent warplane it's 1980s technology. If you want to put this in Star Wars terms, that is a Battle Station and this is an X Wing fighter," said Air Commodore Julian Stinton, Royal Air Force.
In fact, the Sukhoi 30 and the IAF's MiG-21 Bisons were able to knock out British Tornados in several training engagements though the IAF insists on playing down the real score.
"We are operating with RAF aircraft after 43 years. We have had our pilots trained there, especially when we inducted the Jaguar in 1979 after which we have recently had the Hawk pilots being trained and they have brought back the experiences of how the RAF flies," said Air Commodore K G Bewoor, Air Officer Commanding 40 Wing, IAF.
These latest exercises are part of a larger process to prepare for scenarios where the IAF is able to jointly operate with air forces like the Royal Air Force and the US Air Force anywhere in the world.
The Tornado is outclassed by just about everything else in frontline service - and the EF2000 replacement is going to be just as outclassed by US craft.
Always good to see an old stalwart like the Mig-21 still being used. I do wonder why they upgraded them when they are just planning to replace them anyways.
Also, I thought the Tornado was primarily considered a ground attack aircraft. Hardly a fair fight, especially considering the SU-30s which probably have a slight technical edge over the F-15.
The Sukhoi 30 looks like a winner, but I don't see it as a match for the F22 Raptor.
Well one group of folks that have consistently shot the F-22 down are the folks drawing up the defense budget!!!!
Well the Mig-21 & it's variants still constitute a good chunk of the Indian,Chinese & Pakistani AF assets,not to mention scores of other forces.They cannot be replaced quickly.It makes sense to upgrade them with new sensors & weaponry like the Israeli Derby or Russian AA-12:- that would give them a much chance against newer aircraft while still keeping costs low.The Mig-21 upgrade market is a mini-industry by itself!!
Well, I kind of understand, but I would have thought they'd just soldier on with their older models until they could replace them with newer aircraft (I thought they were going to choose something new soon since the LCA is moving slowly).
Also, while China exports their Mig-21 copy as a new aircraft (why do I find that perfectly normal for the Chicoms?) I thought they to were trying to phase out the Mig-21 since they got their J-10 among a slew of Russian aircraft.
As an aside, which Mig-21 upgraded model do you think is best? I'd assume the Israeli Mig-21-2000 would be best, but I have heard good things about the Adder, so I'm thinking the Bison might be better. I have no idea about Romania's Lancer, but I guess that'd be another contender.
Sorry to ramble, but I'm rather fond of seeing upgraded old military equipment especially aircraft and tanks like the Tiran 5.
So what? It is no secret that the EF 2000 is already outclassed by the extremely expensive F-22. It is still better than many other simular planes that are available on the market like the JSF or the Rafale. The thing is that those planes like the EF 2000 (or the Rafale) are good enough to defend Europe. They can deal with all potential threats from Belarus or the north African countries i.e. Since there is no political will on the old continent to engage too much in the future conflict fields that the US may have in Asia (with the ChiComs i.e.) or elsewhere the political leadership of Europe is not going to waste bazillions on new fighters that are not needed.
All nations that are involved in the "superpower"-game like China, the US, India or (still) the Russians have reason to invest money in that field. It does not make any sense to those nations who are not. There are no actual dangers to Europe that would legitimate more investments in this sector.
Aside from the possibility of a resurgent and hostile Russia? I've got a sneaky suspicion that, like the Tornado, the EF2000 isn't going to live up to half the promises that were made about it.
It should also be noted that since the EU wishes to be a superpower ("counterbalance to the US," I seem to recall some Euro-cretins saying), they should not be surprised when people laugh at their miserable attempts.
FYI: The current "fly-away" cost for a new-build F-22 is $134 million and will go down as production ramps up. The fly-away cost for a Typhoon (which, due to weirdness on the part of Panavia does *NOT* include things like the HMD and radars) is about €62 million ($78 million at the time of the Flight article) and keeps increasing.
Russia is no enemy anymore since the end of the cold war. Beside of this any war is unlikely to the extreme since both sides (France and Russia) have nuclear weapons which would be used in such a conflict. Although there are many morons in the politics of Europe and Russia no one of them will deal with such a risk.
Puttie spoke out the truth not that long ago: If Europe and its technological competence merges with the raw materials of Russia you have indeed a "superpower". Maybe not in the millitary sense, but for sure in economic terms. Therefore the political future of Europe is probably not soley located in the west but also in the east due to its own interests.
It should also be noted that since the EU wishes to be a superpower ("counterbalance to the US," I seem to recall some Euro-cretins saying), they should not be surprised when people laugh at their miserable attempts.
That was the idiotic idea of Chrirac and some of his buddies. Such will never happen since it is not in the interest of Europe. A country like Germany i.e. can keep out of everything as long as the leaders keep their mouth shut. It is indeed not in our interest to side up with the French in Kongo, Darfur or with you in Iraq, Afghanistan or elsewhere. We can speak about political economy, if others, who declare themselves as "superpowers" try to solve a part of our own problems. I am well aware that this is not very heroic, but it is a intelligent and cheap policy.
I've got a sneaky suspicion that, like the Tornado, the EF2000 isn't going to live up to half the promises that were made about it.
Personally I am quite content with the Tornado. This weapon system serves us since 25 years and since we do not have to deal with enemies that have more developed planes it will serve another 10 years. That is a quite cheap plane after all. The German Bundeswehr even has some old F-4s in its inventory. If we would buy newer planes we simply would have to deal with uninterrupted requests from NATO and others for Afghanistan and Iraq.
AK DHAR, GWALIOR, OCT 13 (PTI)
A year after proving their mettle against the US Air Force, Indian fighter pilots have now won acclaim from the Royal Air Force after 10 days of intense joint air combat exercises over central India.
"Your fighter pilots are extremely skilled and quick on the button. They can be rated among the best in the world," visiting Air Vice Marshal Christopher N Harper, chief of RAF's strike operations, told reporters here at the conclusion of the first Indo-British air force exercise held after a gap of 43 years.
Not only the men, but their flying machines too came in for awe from pilots and commanders of the RAF.
"It's a super fighter and a mean machine," was how one RAF pilot labelled the IAF's frontline Sukhoi-30MKI combat jet, which along with Mirage 2000s, MiG-27s and upgraded MiG-21 Bisons participated in the exercise with the RAF's mainstay Tornado F-3 air defence aircraft over the skies here.
Forseeing the contours of the emerging cooperation between armed forces of not only Britain and India, but other NATO allies, Harper said, "We live in an uncertain world where the antagonist is not known. A coordinated operation by like thinking nations is a must."
Following fighter exercise with the US Air Force last year, reports had suggested that IAF pilots had out-performed their American counterparts despite flying ageing jets like the MiG-21.
"We don't know where the next conflict will erupt and we are looking for allies all over the world," Harper said, adding that the focus in cooperation among major countries was on evolving "ways and means" to combat the meance of terrorism.
He said during the joint exercise, the RAF had been keen on learning from the IAF's experience in the Kargil conflict of 1999, particulary the use of air power in combating armed militants holed up in mountain hideouts.
"We also shared our experiences of the ongoing fighting in Afghanistan and in Iraq," Harper said.
Avoiding giving out information on the kill and miss ratio during the air combat manoeuvres, both RAF and IAF officers said the aim of the exercise was to get familar with each other's operating procedures and to indentify areas of commonality.
Though the RAF brought its upgraded Tornados for the joint exercise, Harper said that during the next exercise planned to be held in Britain in September next year, his force might field the new generation Typhoon Eurofighters.
But the machine that had the RAF in awe was the Su-30, with Air Commodore Julian Stinton saying the jet was "absolutely masterful in dog fights".
Four RAF pilots flew the Su-30s while Indian pilots flew the RAF's Tornados.
The high point for the IAF was when the British allowed four fighter controllers to witness operations in the E3D Sentry Air Warning and Control System aircraft during a combat operational flight.
The RAF chief, Air Chief Marshal Glenn Torpy, currently on a visit to India, took an opportunity to fly a Su-30.
The RAF also fielded a VC-10 mid-air refuelling aircraft during the exercise.
After a hectic two-day ground training schedule, air combat exercises began on October 3 with less complex manoeuvres involving four fighters. The second week saw both sides undertaking complex missions involving large aircraft engagements.
This was the ninth bilateral exercises in which the IAF has participated in the past three years.
Source:BHARAT RAKSHAK
Most countries operating the 21 are planning to retire it-but only by 2010 or after.If you have the capability & options of upgrading to better standards it at a low-cost,why not go ahead???Esp if you want to maintain a level of superiority over your rivals as is India's case.The Chinese J-10 will only be available in a complete sense in another 4 or 5 years & it's considered more of a higher-end aircraft ala the F-16/F-18.The Chinese FC-1 which is being built for Pakistan is a decent alternative for the 21.It derives a lot from the Mig-21,though.
The Indian Mig-21 93 variant & Israeli Mig-21 2000(of which the Lancer is a variant) are a pretty much similar.Id hunch a guess & say that the Lancer's EW systems are better,though the Bison does use a lot of Israeli avionics.All in all,as far as I know only the Bison uses the Adder BVR-AAM (yet to hear about the East Europeans integrating such weapons)-so that's a plus point.
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